Copyright

[flinty35]

Following the discussion on RaceDepartment.com about Team ORSM's new unleashed mod and how they sold the 3d models to some guy from another modding team, the question is if they sold the models (they say for rendering purpose's but don't you need the complete models??) over a year ago and then when ORSM released their new mod stated not for commercial use doe's the guy who brought the models over a year ago now own those models is this breach of copyright and are ISI missing out on their cut, i understand that ISI have a clause stating that 3rd party brands are the property of their respective owners but they SOLD part of their mod which to me is a legal transaction.
I am not bagging ORSM's mod in anyway in fact i use it myself and is very well made and designed i am just curious as to why they would have these models sold.

http://www.racedepartment.com/team-orsm/29896-what-would-you-like-see-next-orsm-release-15.html

 

[flinty35]

When you sell parts of a mod to someone then release a mod using the same models does the person who brought the models from you have legal right over them, i say this in referral to team ORSM's unleashed models which were sold to another modding team only to be re released as ORSM's V8Factor Unleashed 2010 mod, any thoughts as this is very interesting to find a top modding team selling their models and then releasing their new mod under terms that it is not for commercial use or gain.

http://www.racedepartment.com/team-orsm/29896-what-would-you-like-see-next-orsm-release-15.html

 

[MaXyM]

IMO all depends on local law and contract conditions (what has been sold)

 

[mianiak]

Unless the models are exclusive, the creator can do what they want with them.

 

[flinty35]

They sold the models for the FG and VE, if a party is said to have sold parts of a mod based on rfactor's game engine i wonder if that contradicts their license because to build the models they need to have modding tools from rfactor, anyway if this is true what does it mean for modding in general..??

 

[MaXyM]

I'm sure someone else started the same topic in another thread. Moderator, please join those threads.

However I don't know why ISI should judge this situation. There are trade law which must be obey. That's all.
Finall details of transaction depends on agreement signed by both sides. You say: 'they sold model' - but don't precise what property has been sold. If allowance to use has been sold without other conditions (I can bet it was it) then both sides are free to use models in future. I don't think that they sell models with all rights. If so - issue will end up in an appropriate court. Until that I cannot see a reason why anyone wants to make a scandal of it.

 

[MaXyM]

If you are suggesting, that modding "in general" MUST be for free - you are wrong.

 

[flinty35]

If you are suggesting, that modding "in general" MUST be for free - you are wrong.

Modding in general as in if i make a mod then sell part of it only to release it and tell everyone that it is not for commercial release and non profit as it states in their read me upon the mods release a month ago.
I am not wrong i am asking a question if you sold something then told everyone when the final release was announced and then said its NOT for commercial use or for non profit i am not talking about modding being free, and also who owns the rights to whatever was sold??

 

[MaXyM]

Owner rights are always belongs to creator (or company he is working for as employee - maybe with some differences in local laws).
Creator (ussually) doesn't sell owner rights to the product. He sells rights to use it under some written conditions. Buyer must satisfy those, signed once, conditions. He must not care about the product status changed later.

So, let's say
1. Creator created the product
2. he sell rights to use it for commercial purpose
3. after it he released it for free (as rf mod)

There is nothing wrong with it, since trading conditions of the transaction (ad2) doesn't limit creator's rights

But I still doesn't understand why it discussed on public specially while trading conds are not known. It is a case between buyer and seller. No one else.

 

[flinty35]

Very interesting, if you read their comments at the race-department forum they say it was sold to this other group and they have developed their own mod based on the models they brought (so now you have 2), the other noticeable comment is one of the original makers was under another forum name this all looks too dodgy.

 

[flinty35]

The other matter i wish to discuss is the use of material edited from other games i.e codemasters to rfactor and vice versa etc, i am a modder myself and creating and developing material from other platforms or software designers and using them for your own gain be it profit or commercial use.

 

[flinty35]

You must be a member of ORSM otherwise half the posts we have been discussing would not have been reported and deleted, don't know why it would this is an open discussion on about modding and copyright you are the only person who has answered so i guess its you sad really when you try to get decent feedback people like you come along and i think it is you that is making a scandal of this all i did was ask a simple question???

 

[MaXyM]

No, I'm not. But I guess you have own idea.
I just saying, that without seeing a contract conditions it not possible to judge who is guilty (if there is some).
So such posts makes rumours only.

 

[MaXyM]

Do you have problems with reading? What you asking for, is described in licence conditions. Often displayed during gamestart. There are a few uncommon words like 'reverse engineering'. In overall converting stuff from games is prohibited.

Only exception I know are old sbt games - SBT gave allowance to convert it and use it if player is an owner of the game which the material has been took from (there are also a few more conds).

 

[Hutch-SCO]

Your on here for a stir flinty nothing else

 

[flinty35]

Your on here for a stir flinty nothing else

You obviously sound like another, there is absolutely no basis for your comments here to stir mmm i am talking about the entire modding community and if you look around there is not one discussion about this topic i am just putting to the community what that affects this has everyone who designs and creates content for a great game and to say i cannot wait for rf2.
It is funny to see a simple question can be blown out of proportion (loyal followers perhaps who don't want the dirty washing exposed) if any of you can read my first post at no time do i suggest a massive scandal going on or if i am stirring the pot i too can read and if you read their read me (obviously you haven't) then you will see what i am on about.

 

[LesiU]

It looks like you have problems with understanding, that:
- a creator cannot sell owner's rights to his product. Such rights are unsellable. I mean, if you have made a 3d model, then you are the creator of it and no matter how much cash someone would give you and no matter what you signed, you are the creator and you own the rights for it.
- all conditions are written down in agreement between both sides and it's the agreement where you should look for the answers to your questions

So, don't expect clear answer from people not involved in that issue. They won't provide you a simple answer.

Maxym beeing ORSM member... lol, grow up kid
Maybe all ISI community on this forum are ORSM members, because they might have different opinion than you?

 

[RT1971]

I think you should read the conversation again, the models weren't sold to another modding team they were sold as a render scene for 3DS Max for showing off personal skins in a high quality render.
Also the models don't actually belong to ORSM they are the property of the person that created them.

 

[flinty35]

I think you should read the conversation again, the models weren't sold to another modding team they were sold as a render scene for 3DS Max for showing off personal skins in a high quality render.
Also the models don't actually belong to ORSM they are the property of the person that created them.

That is right you need the models to do that and this other team have been using these in races online?????.
People with no answer normally have something to hide that is why when asked at the race department forum the person doing the asking had his account deleted in fact more have had their accounts suspended for asking simple questions freedom of speech ye right!

 

[Uzzi]

”the question is if they sold the models (they say for rendering purpose's but don't you need the complete models??) over a year ago and then when ORSM released their new mod stated not for commercial use doe's the guy who brought the models over a year ago now own those models is this breach of copyright?”

- No way, no breach what so ever. Like several posters said the modeler holds all rights over their unlicensed content. Team ORSM doesn’t own anything accept the mod is self, and that’s not at issue here. It’s their car modeler(s) who has all the rights and he can independently sell any of his content without regard to that modding team. So lets say, he sold some of his models to a company and they released them for profit, That doesn’t make the mod for profit and I can guarantee you they had permission to do it, or it wouldn’t be around long enough to comment about.

A mod team is usually made up of specialists: 3D modelers, painters, and programmers. The mod is a compilation of all their work. This mod team doesn't own the models that were used for renders, so if a deal was made for the models it isn't the mod teams business.

“That is right, you need the models to do that and this other team have been using these in races online?????.”

You keep talking in terms of teams, and that’s simply not how it works. Team ORSM isn’t going to know or say anything about the car modeler’s private dealings, so you need to ask the right person, and that’s a very private matter and not going to be answered for you.

“i am talking about the entire modding community and if you look around there is not one discussion about this topic i am just putting to the community what that affects this has everyone who designs and creates content for a great game and to say i cannot wait for rf2”

I don’t see how you are making a general discussion here. I can’t wait for rFactor 2 to be released, like everyone else, but bringing up this kind of speculation isn’t going to make it happen any sooner. I don't think the statements you are trying to make are appropriate, relevant or constructive and the other guy probably got deleted for this reason; it was causing more trouble than it was solving.

To try to broaden this topic a bit, how about this: 3rd party developers have pretty much all rights to their mod content independent of their mod groups or for-profit-contracts, but what about a full-time employee of say, a big company like EA? Might he have different rights, giving that company full rights to ownership? I bet the person would get in big trouble if they tried to sell something like an F1 track to another company for profit, using content they created for EA.

 

[flinty35]

- No way, no breach what so ever. Like several posters said the modeler holds all rights over their unlicensed content. Team ORSM doesn’t own anything accept the mod is self, and that’s not at issue here. It’s their car modeler(s) who has all the rights and he can independently sell any of his content without regard to that modding team. So lets say, he sold some of his models to a company and they released them for profit, That doesn’t make the mod for profit and I can guarantee you they had permission to do it, or it wouldn’t be around long enough to comment about.

A mod team is usually made up of specialists: 3D modelers, painters, and programmers. The mod is a compilation of all their work. This mod team doesn't own the models that were used for renders, so if a deal was made for the models it isn't the mod teams business.



You keep talking in terms of teams, and that’s simply not how it works. Team ORSM isn’t going to know or say anything about the car modeler’s private dealings, so you need to ask the right person, and that’s a very private matter and not going to be answered for you.



I don’t see how you are making a general discussion here. I can’t wait for rFactor 2 to be released, like everyone else, but bringing up this kind of speculation isn’t going to make it happen any sooner. I don't think the statements you are trying to make are appropriate, relevant or constructive and the other guy probably got deleted for this reason; it was causing more trouble than it was solving.

To try to broaden this topic a bit, how about this: 3rd party developers have pretty much all rights to their mod content independent of their mod groups or for-profit-contracts, but what about a full-time employee of say, a big company like EA? Might he have different rights, giving that company full rights to ownership? I bet the person would get in big trouble if they tried to sell something like an F1 track to another company for profit, using content they created for EA.

That is what i have been talking about but people like you keep butting in with ''oh you cant say this'' and ''you shouldn't do that'' i wish people would read the very first post and just make a comment and not get so worked up about lol i am having a real laugh at some of you people i say jump you say how high pretty simple really.

 

[GavinG]

Glad to see the BETA generating so much interest, even if this thread was not the intened outcome. Flinty you've made mention of the models being used by another team for online racing? Can you provide links to this team/series as Im only aware of the models being used by Team ORSM in our release(s).

 

[GavinG]

People with no answer normally have something to hide that is why when asked at the race department forum the person doing the asking had his account deleted in fact more have had their accounts suspended for asking simple questions freedom of speech ye right!

I feel Kev explained himself perfectly at the RD forum re the sale of the VE and FG Render Scenes to an external party. I'm not aware of anyone having their RD accounts deleted or suspended for asking questions.

 

[still_bacon]

Hi Flinty

The question was initially asked about whether ISI was entitled to some compensation due to the models being made with ISI tools, and that this may somehow breach their terms and conditions. This appears to have not been answered to your understanding.

Irrespective of what the modeller has done with the 3d Meshs (sold them or used them for modding), the models are not made with ISI tools.

The Models are made with 3d modelling software like 3DSMax. ISI create tools which they provide to the community to build mods for their product. This is the rFactor platform that everyone loves. rF was originally designed as a Modding platform after the success of Modding on their F1 series and previous titles. To assist people to do this, ISI also released many of their proprietary modding resources (including MAS tools, AI generator, etc)

ISI wants modellers to import the models into rF. As such they provide plugins that can convert a model created in a 3d modelling software into a model that will work with the GMotor engine. They do not provide the tools to create the models.

As such, the models are not created using ISI tools, but imported into an ISI game for others to enjoy by using their tools.

This is why ISI would not be involved in this discussion, as it has no bearing on them or their business what someone does with their own 3d models.

As stated by Gav and others, the author has sold 3d scenes for a commercial (non ISI) 3d program to allow an artist to provide a 3d representation to their clients on what the clients car would look like with the artists livery design on it. They have not sold anything to do with the rFactor Game engine, or anything to do with ISI.

Also, the ability for ORSM to release a mod using a product that has been previously sold to someone else would be dependent on the agreement the modeller has made with his customer.

In this situation, the models are releasable without any financial impacts to the purchaser of the scene.

You also mentioned about it being sold to another mod team. To ORSM and the modellers knowledge, the models are not used ingame anywhere else and if they were, then that is an issue for the modeller (not ISI or ORSM) to persue legally if it breached the sale agrement between the modeller and his client.

Does this clarify your question?