Endor (Fanatec) won't be saved from this Death Star

Panigale

FWIW thought I'd share this info with those that might be thinking about buying Fanatec products. (*This is my conclusion, feel free to reach your own based on the available data.)

I have a Fanatec pedal set and the CSW F1 rim NIB and decided I'd buy the CSW base so that I have a complete set. As many are aware, Endor Ag has gone quiet so I wanted to do some digging first. What I found doesn't look good.

Endor Ag trades on the Munich stock exchange under E2N. I started going through their financials like I would if I planned on buying the stock. Debt/Cash is even, but they are holding debt until collecting revenue to settle. And revenues have been falling. Not something that I would expect from a company doing so well just a few years ago but not a deal breaker either.

I read before that their stock was down and I think the response was it was normal but this isn't looking normal. Their stock is trading at or very near a five year low, a steady decline since coming off a five year high Nov 2011. (I won't bother to post the charts but feel free to take a look yourself.) Now that alone is concerning but the next two charts look even worse.

Volume and Accumulation/Distribution show something disturbing. Starting the first half of 2013 the stock (while dropping) was bought up aggressively. (This to me spells anticipation of something and it wasn't the new shifter.) Then a complete 180 started Sept. 2013, stock was sold at volume levels never seen in the past five years. Sept. 2nd was a peak volume day and the stock was getting dumped then another new volume record set in Oct.

What could cause this? Fanatec's shifter was about ready to ship. Why dump the stock so aggressively after buying it up? Well insiders must have known at this point Fanatec were getting shut out of the next gen markets and that was their only hope of revenues getting healthy again. Game over. Stocks were dumped and Thomas put on a good show by saying he would not release info as done in the past because there was actually nothing positive to say and the stock sell off said what he wouldn't.

As consumers we noticed that Fanatec went dark beginning of Dec 2013. No blog, no FB, nothing. Looking at the trading clearly things went south months before. The CSW product line was fruit from the hay days of 2011 and that hasn't been the success they needed it to be. Their financials are telling me they are in life support mode. For those expecting Thomas to surface with a new CSW wheel or console product, it isn't happening. He isn't avoiding angry forum people or not discussing secret new products. They have no funds to develop new products and the CSW isn't bringing in enough money for it to even make sense to do so.

This is a shame but the numbers and history tell the story. It could change but something big would need to happen and that ship has probably sailed. Most likely the going dark in Dec. is a sign the fight was lost. One of two folks doing product support and shipping inventory that may or may not get restocked once depleted. I may still buy the CSW to have a piece of sim history on the shelf.
 
Customer service is a good practice and is good for business. Fanatec provided terrible cust service and delivered substandard products. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
 
Interesting post.


Perhaps if Thomas had spent more money on product development and less on advertising/sponsoring he would have been a bit more successful. I had made up my mind quite awhile ago that I will never purchase another Fanatec product ever again.
 
Reading this is not great news,

I am a owner of the complete Package, CSw base, BMW Rim , Formula Rim, CSP V2 pedals and Shifter sq EU. I've got the Base and both wheels from the very beginning and never had any trouble with them. Only thing that broke was the load-cell and they replaced it withing a week. So absolutely no problems for me with Fanatec. The gear they are selling is absolute top of the list in this price range.
Yes the customer service could and should be better but I haven't got any trouble with it.

Strangely they have updated the Fanatec online shop with a new layout. So I think when they where dead they would've not done that.
 
Well, this may be true, which is sad. Most probably the demand is just too low.

Guy Moulton said:
Customer service is a good practice and is good for business. Fanatec provided terrible cust service and delivered substandard products. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
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It was very good in my case, fast response, fast delivery. No problems at all.
 
Guy Moulton said:
Customer service is a good practice and is good for business. Fanatec provided terrible cust service and delivered substandard products. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
Click to expand...
I've had exact opposite experience. The support was really good and efficient.

On the OP's post, I was wondering what happened with that Porsche's wheel they are developing. Maybe there is something what went down the road.
 
there biggest problem was releasing a new wheel base and not releasing new rims for there top item, they also have to many things going on at once, to work on there best product. never had a prob with fanatec in any way I also have owned 3 wheels and only upgraded and sold the old stuff.
 
They need more rims definitely. What they really should do is release an adapter so you can fit any car wheel. 3 months on from this post they must be still alive. I got a wheel base and both rims last week, quick delivery. Quite impressed so far, it's had proper abuse with the karts on 1.6 ffb multi. Will certainly do until we get to see the price and availability on the simx wheel.

edit: is this post from 3 days ago - yes silly me and the date format thing...... oh god what have I bought, wait it seems pretty good, those dudes at isr did a favorable review recently, won't people buy it because it's good? I did. I can't see me or any serious sim racer looking to next gen consoles for sim racing. Assuming you are reading the stocks right it could be they aren't going into that market now due to getting shut out like you say, doesn't mean they will simply die though does it?
 
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I've got a full set too but after two broken pins on the GT rim, a change of a motor and the data cable, and then a new power button, things have not been plain sailing. Since December my base has gone to support on 3 occasions and only last week I'm finding that I lose the FFB in game and the power button light is off, yet the wheel still works. Only after switching it on/off (maybe more than once) then all okay. it's an intermittent problem but annoying nonetheless. I've raised a ticket an been told that it could be because my cockpit is not earthed. I have it attached to a playseat...not sure how I am meant to 'earth' a playseat?

I have absolutely nothing negative to say about their customer service (yet), as each repair has been fast and efficient & I am on my 3rd BMW rim now but they have also changed the hub on the CSW so it is a much tighter fit.

If the financial situation is correct, (from my experience) I can only assume it is due to a sapping of resources from technically flawed product(s).
 
Have you tried to un-mount it from PlaySeat, keeping it drom any metal surfaces and see if problem exist?
 
Interesting, maybe I'll hang on to my gt3 rs for a bit longer, that has had years of use and no problems. With my wheelbase the f1 rim is super tight but the bmw version has slight play, I find the power button light to be quite annoying when using the bmw rim, you see it and it's distracting. Would be the only complaint I had so far. Loss of ffb I put down to rf2, happens occasionally when starting a session or swapping vehicles, happened with my old wheel as well but only in rf2. I just have ffb reset programmed to a button on the wheel.
 
Prodigy said:
Have you tried to un-mount it from PlaySeat, keeping it drom any metal surfaces and see if problem exist?
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No, I'm just a little sceptical as this problem only started after having the power button replaced. Not to sound daft, but how would I go about earthing the playseat? What about attaching rubber washers between playseat plate for the wheel base & CSW mount so there is no metal contact (but screws are still metal contact)?

EDIT: After ensuring the playset was on a rubbered mat, clearing all wires away from the playseat and reapplying the firmware my problem has been solved after extensive testing. Not sure which was the cause but all were suggested by Fanatec and once again very happy with their customer service.
 
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Murtaya said:
Interesting, maybe I'll hang on to my gt3 rs for a bit longer, that has had years of use and no problems. With my wheelbase the f1 rim is super tight but the bmw version has slight play, I find the power button light to be quite annoying when using the bmw rim, you see it and it's distracting. Would be the only complaint I had so far. Loss of ffb I put down to rf2, happens occasionally when starting a session or swapping vehicles, happened with my old wheel as well but only in rf2. I just have ffb reset programmed to a button on the wheel.
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If your BMW rim is a little loose in the base I would advise screwing it in with the screw that is supplied with the rim or you risk having a broken pin sometime in the future (especially when using no FFB smoothing).
 
Ok that makes sense, those pins look little fragile. They should have gone with contact patches or a flying lead that you disconnect.

Clearly the board that your power button is controlled by is at fault not the button. Earthing won't have anything to do with it. I'd be demanding a new wheel base.
 
Murtaya said:
...won't people buy it because it's good? I did. I can't see me or any serious sim racer looking to next gen consoles for sim racing. Assuming you are reading the stocks right it could be they aren't going into that market now due to getting shut out like you say, doesn't mean they will simply die though does it?
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Unfortunately not enough people are purchasing their current products, good or not. I have no interest in consoles either but Fanatec needed the revenue that missed opportunity would have provided. They don't make enough money to survive, at least in the way they operated, with only PC sim sales. Along with better product development (as Jamie said) they needed badly to reduce expenses. In addition they could have tried to offer some higher margin items like Fanatec branded keyboards. Not sexy but it is a bit like Porsche selling an SUV to keep the 911 and the brand alive (almost ten years ago).

They are on life support, so not dead but near death. They can limp along selling what they have and maybe taking pre-orders to fund the next batch. *This seems to be their approach with the new shifter although I would be wary about paying a silent company anything via pre-order.

However with no marketing communication or new products they won't last long. I suspect they are under private receivership brought on by owing money to suppliers. Those suppliers would be very keen on seeing existing inventory sold to ensure they receive payment. Debt/Cash was even in 2012 but their current Net on some sites shows negative over 1 million euro while revenue was little over half that. Receivership could have been forced on them EOY 2013. i.e. Thomas would have no control nor be able to speak for his company until debts are settled according to whatever agreement was made.
 
At which point he could continue the worthwhile products under a new name ThomasTec or something. I honestly think the csw is too good a product to simply disappear. You don't know these things and are only surmising, certainly won't be doing them any favours if they are teetering on the brink of death, which I hope they aren't as we don't want less players in the market.

He posted this on the 4th of April.

The NEW Blog Welcome to our NEW BLOG and community page on Fanatec.com

This blog will replace the current blog at [url]www.911wheel.com.[/URL] After the blog has been implemented succesfully we will also start a forum here and much more.

There are plenty of reasons for this new community and here are the most important:

  • You can use your existing webshop log in info
  • More powerful forum and blog functions and tools
  • All content under our main domain
It has been a bit silent in the past months but we were working on a lot of things and here is the place you will find all the new info.


I hope you like it!
Thomas

Hopefully this is good news and not the loud howling of a dying dog. :D
 
Murtaya said:
You don't know these things and are only surmising...
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Not sure I'd equate analyzing the financials of the company as well as their history and public statements as surmising but you are certainly welcome to your opinion. Thomas going quiet has caused more damage to Fanatec than my thread but that was never the point of my post. I simply wanted to share what I found because up till this point it was unclear why Fanatec did a disappearing act. His new blog seems more like damage control since the old blog had a lot of less than positive comments. Timing is interesting though, maybe my surmising hit a bit too close to home...
 
I don't doubt you are right about changes being about to come from the figures. Whether it is the complete death of fanatec and all the products is what you can't know.


If he hasn't got an industrial servo motor based CSW base in the works, he may as well give up now.
 
Murtaya said:
I don't doubt you are right about changes being about to come from the figures. Whether it is the complete death of fanatec and all the products is what you can't know.


If he hasn't got an industrial servo motor based CSW base in the works, he may as well give up now.
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He should try to look at Frex GP's SimWheel V3. They claim it's even better than servo. No belts either. The system is patented but sometimes there are clever ways around a patent. Thomas should look into that.

If not than you can't say servo or nothing. Servo wheels tend to cost $2000 - $5000. CSW base + rim is what, $700 - $800?
 
Not sure what your point is Spinelli mate, lately you seem to be trolling a bit - ie disagreeing with anything I say or repeating what I say in a different way or out of context.

To be clear.

If Thomas has got to abandon the console market and try to continue in the sim hardware market he needs to compete with higher end products like the Bodnar and the new simX wheel if it arrives.
The csw base would be perfect to add a high end motor into as they have spent good money developing the rims, which would put it at an advantage over the other wheels. I said nothing about price. Of course I know it wouldn't be the same price as it is now? What am I new? And why are you going on about belts? The servo motor wheels don't have belts they are direct drive. But if they wanted to run a belt off a servo motor what would be the problem with that? So whether it's servo or a copy of Frex's super amazing non servo, non belt wonder machine, he needs to do something and the csw base could house a lot of different stuff and still be compatible with the rims. And my point was if he isn't doing something along these lines and has lost the console market he ought to just call it a day now.

Don.

It seems like since you did the long post on the 3d vision glasses and not everyone agreed with you, you want to get all forceful, like over the vmod thing; you aren't going to change it mate. Not even by insinuating I don't understand something as simple as a mismatch. You misinterpreted my saying "I thought 3d was a gimmick because at the movies it seems a load of junk" as I disagree with you. When what I am/was saying is "wow this is interesting I will have to revisit 3d and try it with gaming" and went and bought a pair because you said they were good. So do you think you chill out with it? If I have offended you by taking a different standpoint on a subject in the past I am apologizing now, alright?

Mike
 
Actually, I think Fanatec has missed a trick by not offering a wheel and pedals set for the budget/starter end of the market, arguably the most sizable sector of what is a niche market anyway. Let's face it, many people new to sim racing are not willing/unable to spend £hundreds on a first wheel setup. Fanatec hasn't catered for this market which is a mistake in my opinion.

My first decent wheel was the Logitech Driving Force GT which offered amazing value for what was a very solid, well built wheel with strong FFB. At £80 new it was a steal and was the wheel that got me interested in sim racing and led me on to higher-end Fanatec products. If Fanatec could produce and sell a basic yet solid wheel and pedals set in the £100-200 price bracket they would generate more sales and get more people interested in the brand. Forget the Xbox, just offer a good value USB wheel for PC, PS3 and PS4.

Generally I think Fanatec's products are a little overpriced (and postage costs are far too high) and build quality can be sketchy. However as the owner of a CSR wheel and Clubsport V2 pedals I have little to complain about. Apart from a couple of minor niggles both products have worked well. Perhaps I've been one of the lucky ones.
 
Got to be a new csw rim. Well overdue. Probably be yet another dash display or the handbrake though.
 
I have just ordered a CSW base, desk clamp and the BMW rim. Was looking at this gear when it first came out, but being in Australia, the shipping was pretty high.

Now they have a local web site, the shipping on the above gear came to under $20, which is very reasonable for the size and weight of the packages.

I think there would be quite a few people like myself who were put off previously with no local point of contact. I think having them open a local point of contact for Australia and also Japan is a step in the right direction.
 
I don't know what Fanatec are thinking to be honest. Simpler wheel with no buttons yet charge double the price.
 
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It's just crazy.
Sure the quality is great, but not worth that money. I don't know where they got 350€ for it.
 
The new wheel looks like my old momo prototipo but costs twice as much?

Fanatec seems to make two bad decisions for every good one. GE got into the home appliance business because it sold turbines to create electricity as the story goes. i.e. They had little interest in making cheap toasters but they did want to sell their turbines. Thomas needs to sell CSWs to grow their user base. Multiple low cost wheel options should help facilitate this. Instead he is trying to make a killing on a new toaster. Like Clint Eastwood said, "a man's got to know his limitations."

July 25th will provide new financials, should be interesting...
 
If they sold just the quick release/mounting kit that wheel uses for 70-100€ they could sell hundreds, as you could mount any aftermarket wheel with the same bolt pattern. Even if that was possible to remove the new rim, who on earth is going to spend €350 for that rim just to have the release unit?
 
I wanted to post this as this comes directly from Thomas. I've never seen this officially addressed before and I think it is long overdue but I like what I see. Helps greatly to know that the burnout issues are resolved.

Thomas Jackermeier May 6th 2014:

"The motors of the CSW are the same or similar as used in millions of FF wheels. There was a large batch of bad motors which caused big problems but with the latest motors those issues are gone.

Think about it. We are using the same motor on the Porsche wheels with 2,5 A and we use 2 of those motors in the CSW at 5A. The application is the same and stall is stall - no matter how you achieve it.

The problem was a wrong soldering method and wire shielding which was not suitable for high temperature. Only a limited amount of motors were affected but we are still talking about hundreds of wheels and even replacement motors had the issue as it took us too long to find out the root cause.

And it occurs ore likely if you race very often and so does the very vocal and influential minority of opinion leaders. That is the reason why you read so often about the issue.

If a motor is replaced now or if you purchase a CSW new and don't overclock your FOR or SPR power above 100 then you will be just fine. No engine will last forever and it always depends how you treat it. No matter if it is a real car or one of our wheels. But our products are designed for heavy use and the motor itself is fit for the purpose."
 
That price is insane. Your options of buying a real racing wheel with a quick release hub are cheaper. I just don't understand what this guy is thinking. I do understand why he doesn't have any buttons on it though as that seems to be another thing people are complaining about. Thomas has lost all touch with reality of business and seems more into these strange promotional and sponsorship deals.
 
Jamie Shorting said:
I do understand why he doesn't have any buttons on it though as that seems to be another thing people are complaining about.
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You might be misinterpreting what myself and others mean by this; the Formula and BMW rims have a lot of buttons, display etc, meaning complex electronics, so that's going to drive the cost up. If this wheel clearly has little to no electronic components, then the €350 price tag is even more insane.
 
I get what they were going for with this wheel, but I just don't understand how they could even consider charging this much for it. If it were $150, maybe people would buy it. But, 350 euros? I just don't get it.
 
seems a tad steep

maybe their just throwing a product onto their list with a high price in an attempt to convince people there's something extra special about it ( bet some people will buy it too )
 
Yep, the price is ridiculous (still I'd probably consider it if it had buttons). What many people wanted was just light wheel with buttons (maybe a tad smaller than BMW rim).
 
I fully expect him to be asking north of €300 for that again. That's a wheel that *could* tempt me, but I wont pay an unreasonable price for it.
 
The thing is with the big heavy wheels they dampen the FFB effects. I don't think that is a good thing.
 
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