A quasi-objective way to judge physics of sim cars

Joe

How realistic are Sim cars? This is an interesting question most people like to ask. There are tones of discussion on this subject online. Most of them turned out to be helpless. This question will live on as long as Sim products live. To answer this question, of course, objective studies need to be done by comparing to real cars and on real tracks in:
• Grip state; and
• Non-grip state (sliding state).

1) Grip state: a car dynamic behavior in a grip state has been extensively studied. The physics of a car in grip state is pretty known defined, and most models applied in simulations are very successful in the past years. Two online published results on rF1 with modified F3 cars showed
rFactor indeed are very accurate, could be up to ~95% in accuracy. I could take this for grant that latest sims such rF2, AC, iRacing maybe even better. So we may not need to address grip state on this subject.2)

2) Non-grip state (sliding state): dynamic behavior is not that well studied and when and how a car starts to slide is pretty much “unknown”, as “black art”: So, judging if a sim is realistic or not is mainly based on comparing on real life on non-grip state (driving at and beyond the limit) sees more meaningful.

Of course, we have no data be compared for non-grip state. I came a quasi-objective way to do this, by referencing Chris Harri techniques one real sliding.
Chris Harris has been sliding many of cars on his videos. He taught us how exactly he did step-by-step. Here is his video shown how to step-by-step slide a BMW M235i:


AC has the same BMW car. For rF2, one can expect to slide Nissan Z370 in the same way. One shall note that you have to turn off all assistance OFF as he did on real cars and with NO tuning (setup) --- shall use factory default!

Assetto Corsa has wide range of selections road cars. The following cars in Assetto Corsa were found in Chris Harris videos (he slide all in exactly same way he taught us):

Ferrari La Ferrari:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaAQW8lVaRM

Ferrari F40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MDTcXGsjuo

McLaren MP4-12C
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mKB-8WUB5k

Mercedes SLS AMG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkjqQ1rXpRs


Please do not reply “I can slide those cars”, this is not an answer! If both AC and rF2 implement physics on sliding state is correct, then one shall be able to slide those sim cars just as he did a way on real cars.--- applying max throttle on rear tires with reversed max slip angle of front tires. If you can do it, please provide video to prove if you can. Then I believe the physics is correct. (please no tuning -- setup. use Factory default).
 


Do...do we award points? Or give really intense and excited Japanese commentary? XD
 
read the post carefully and watch the videos first if your IQ is high enough.

your first video is not the way Chris Harris sliding. the slip angle is wrong direction!
rest videos you posted are not worth...
 
boblevieux said:
I don't understand, for which cars do you want a comparison ?
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the listed cars Chris Harris did are all listed in AC. For rF2, you can try any rear-wheel-drive car. If rF2 physics correct, one shall be able to do so, because he did consistently on all real cars.
 
Joe said:
the listed cars Chris Harris did are all listed in AC. For rF2, you can try any rear-wheel-drive car. If rF2 physics correct, one shall be able to do so, because he did consistently on all real cars.
Click to expand...

Except Chris Harris is on street tires rather than race tires, so the technique may not have similar timing. And I'm not sure if the 370Z in rF2 has street spring/shock rates available. Drifting consistently is not so easy as it looks for the unpracticed, as Randy Pobst showed in a video a couple months ago.

Edit: there's a great rF2 video of someone (gui?) drifting out of Sao Paulo pit lane with the Cobra.

Edit: Paul Loatman!
 
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Please do not reply “I can slide those cars”, this is not an answer!

Okay, whatever you say.....

This is an interesting question most people like to ask.

Funny, never asked it in my lifetime

I KNOW what I feel, I KNOW what I like.


Stop worrying or giving credence what others perceive and have fun !@!
 
Emery said:
Except Chris Harris is on street tires rather than race tires, so the technique may not have similar timing. And I'm not sure if the 370Z in rF2 has street spring/shock rates available. Drifting consistently is not so easy as it looks for the unpracticed, as Randy Pobst showed in a video a couple months ago.

Edit: there's a great rF2 video of someone (gui?) drifting out of Sao Paulo pit lane with the Cobra.
Click to expand...

The Chris Harris teaching on his BMW video is showing how to get into a sliding state, which is a deterministic state. In other words, it is can be applied to others as long as you master his techniques. He did just like that for all other cars.

See at 6:1, 6:30, 10:27, 11:56, 12:50, 13:30, 13:50, and 14:15 in his Ferrari La Ferrari video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaAQW8lVaRM

see at 0:40, 5:13, 8:30, 8:47, 9:04, and 9:20 in his Mercedes SLS AMG video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkjqQ1rXpRs

This is only "quasi-objective" way I can think of, using his techniques to slide the sim cars. Without this reference, then we turn out to be subjective again.

there are only two outcomes here:
1) you just cannot master his techniques;
2) if so, but you still could not slide the car as he did, then physics is not correct. Otherwise, it is correct.
 
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Emery said:
Except Chris Harris is on street tires rather than race tires, so the technique may not have similar timing. And I'm not sure if the 370Z in rF2 has street spring/shock rates available. Drifting consistently is not so easy as it looks for the unpracticed, as Randy Pobst showed in a video a couple months ago.

Edit: there's a great rF2 video of someone (gui?) drifting out of Sao Paulo pit lane with the Cobra.

Edit: Paul Loatman!
Click to expand...

The underlying physics in that video were a bit different to what they are now, it was before some suspension fixes in one of the builds which made the cars feel a bit better, a bit more dynamic, and probably a bit more stable in a slide. So if it was possible to do it before that change, it should easily be possible now with the current build. Also, part of what i was managing when i did that video was the FFB itself, i was using the default FFB on the "high" mode on the AF which doesn't point the wheel in the direction that the car is traveling in an accurate way and there was a lower speed limit on the AF back then. With my current JSON settings and using the responsive mode, it's much easier since the wheel points in the direction of the slide in a more realistic way so i can rely much more on the steering.

I know the NSX, Panoz, and Corvettes can all be drifted. The Panoz is very easy to drift, the power-to-weight makes it very predictable. The NSX requires a bit more coaxing to get it into a slide, but once you're in it it's easy to control since it doesn't have a huge amount of power. The Corvette depends on the exact model, but all have a lot of power so it's similar to the Cobra where you have to manage the throttle more than the other cars after initiating a slide.

I think the Panoz is the easiest car to drift, so if anyone wants to try it in rF2, that would be a good car to start with. I don't think the Corvette is a good car to learn with because it's so easy to just put your foot down and get wheel spin, and the suspension is good enough that controlling it afterwards is very easy. The NSX or Panoz are probably better to learn with since you'll have to learn how to actually throw a car into a slide under braking or with inertia.
 
I asked same question a year ago on my youtube channel. Three guys replied and they tried on AC cars with Chris Harris' way:


His reply:
"Hey! I had roughly the same idea making this video http://youtu.be/wiDYj67ZvQI a couple of weeks ago. It shows Pagani Huayra and LaFerrari drifting including my german live-commentary. I can get the F40 and the SLS as well to drift fairly nice and also the MP4 is possible with a little bit of practice. I have driven with street tyres on a green track. At the end of the video you can find a whole lap witch both cars without my weird german voice xD
If I had the time I would try to replicate every scene of the Chris Harris drfting video in AC, just for the sake of looks and comparison.
Interesting: With the LaFerrari Chris says, that you can stay a gear higher as you think and I have tried that, too. Even the slowest ~50 km/h corner on Vallelunga is driftable in 3rd gear. Torque ftw :D"

Other guy did too:


The last guy replied:

https://www.instagram.com/p/xuPJ0_vr9U/?modal=true

How do you guys think the physics of AC cars?

(PS: Chris Harris videos:
See at 6:1, 6:30, 10:27, 11:56, 12:50, 13:30, 13:50, and 14:15 in his Ferrari La Ferrari video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaAQW8lVaRM

see at 0:40, 5:13, 8:30, 8:47, 9:04, and 9:20 in his Mercedes SLS AMG video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkjqQ1rXpRs
 
"how to evalue realism of simulated vehicle" would be interesting subject to think/discuss of.

Even test driving the real and the simulated car might not be good because driving experiences of those differ even if simulated and real car behaved in exactly same way. Maybe videos and telemetry data would be the best way then?
 
Joe said:
2) Non-grip state (sliding state): dynamic behavior is not that well studied and when and how a car starts to slide is pretty much “unknown”, as “black art”: So, judging if a sim is realistic or not is mainly based on comparing on real life on non-grip state (driving at and beyond the limit) sees more meaningful.
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That's the part that matters and where almost every sim falls apart. In racing you push a car. You are constantly approaching and going over (regardless if it's small amounts, not-so-small amounts, or very large amounts) the limits of grip. Braking, turn-in. mid-corner, exit, corner after corner. This is where most sims fall apart. The way cars behave/act/react as you start to push and play with limits. Specifically in-terms of oversteer, the only sims that don't fall apart and don't go outside of their "sweet spot" are Netkar Pro, Live For Speed, and Driver's Republic Alpha (Assetto Corsa is part way there as the lower speed, less edgy cars, are quite good). They aren't perfectly accurate, of course not, no sim is, but the vehicle dynamics and kinematics go into and out of those states extremely "smoothly"; the "maths" of the physics go into and out of those states extremely "smoothly" regardless if it's a slow slide, a faster slide, a sudden snap-slide, large slip angle, small ones, high speed, low speed, a half-spin, a full spin, an F1 Car, an F2000 car. It doesn't feel like a different physics engine takes over, or something in the "maths" breaks when those situations occur in those 3 games (and partly in Assetto Corsa).

Judging just from things like overall grip and corner speeds, well, that hardly means anything. You can technically have 100 different sims all nail down corner speeds and grip while each's physics drive completely differently. Some charts showing simplistic things like brake points, down changes, corner speeds, etc. don't mean much in my opinion. It's how the vehicle, the physics engine behaves/responds/acts/reacts that is important to nailing down vehicle dynamics and kinematics.

Minibull said:
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That video looks wrong compared to drifting in real life, LFS, or even AC. It does all the typical weird ISI behavior. Massive issues with what I'm guessing is called lateral momentum and how the rear rotates relative to the original vehicle's direction of travel. That has been evident in any ISI physics engine from at-least F1 2002 to present day (RFactor 2), it's a far cry from Live For Speed, Assetto Corsa, Driver's Republic behavior, let alone real-life. The very first time I saw that NSX preview vid - in massive excitement if I may add - I could tell there were no revolutionary physics changes under the core but rather just another car added to the lineup (and a fun car at that, don't get me wrong).
 
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This might be the dumbest physics talk I have seen on these forums.
It's like reading a book review made by illiterate mouth-breather.
 
Lazza said:
How about posting video from rF2 showing how you can't do it?
Click to expand...

No, no intention to that, neither want/wish to do so.
Honestly, I do not believe AC is better than rF2 on this regard.

I did try the BMW 235i of AC. With "full throttle" as Chris taught to get into oversteer, I seem start to slide but no way I can manage stage 2 and 3 of which he was teaching us on his real BWM. Similarly, I tired some rF2 cars, stage 2 and stage 3 fails on me.

The guys' videos on AC cars look like they managed both stages but I am not sure how much throttle they applied. I have a doubt on this. If applied that much throttle ("full") on both AC and rF2 cars, I got spin off right after encount the steering. I give up.

Chris Harris made so easy on this video. there must be some truths. Hey, there are tons of hard core racers here. Some one got to try and let us know. We all need one and only one who is going to show us he can do that as Chris Harris did on real cars.
 
I personally think that the inherent lag in our sims are what make it tricky to drift well.
I remember seeing a shot of kimi coming back on track, he cuts a big slide in his f1 car, but absolutely immediately you see his hands whip to correct, and as soon as it comes back out of it, his hands whip back to stop the overcorrection.

When I've looked at slides that made me go "wtf", I always see my actual reactions are just ever so slightly behind the cars movements.
The computer has to process the state, send it to the gpu and out to the monitor, which them has to display it there, and only then when I see it amd process it, can I respond, which has to go back in to the computer and be processed, etc.
As far as I can see IRL, kimi would have had his whole body sensing the slide with just his uber quick reaction times as a delay.

Not saying this is the answer, it's just something I always notice when something goes wrong for me.
 
Golanv said:
This might be the dumbest physics talk I have seen on these forums.
It's like reading a book review made by illiterate mouth-breather.
Click to expand...

You know, this forum is getting pretty damn toxic. It's a HUGE turn off to people new to rF2.
 
monsterZERO said:
You know, this forum is getting pretty damn toxic. It's a HUGE turn off to people new to rF2.
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+1

Golanv, I would say this isn't the most scientific look at the physics, that's all...it is a public forum though, so say what you want eh...just don't mind when people want to judge you as a "mouth breather"
 
Honestly this isn't a good way of checking accuracy. The number of variables you can't account for is enormous, you've selected only one aspect of one small facet of performance with no particularly strong rationale and you've got no meaningful margin of error. The only real way we have is numbers and that takes an intense amount of research, working with ideal conditions and approaching compromises objectively based on the end goals of the product; basically what a sim developer does. People rattle on and on about 'looks right' and 'feels right' but these notions are catastrophically misleading.

I've literally seen people give huge praises so called 'improvements' in car dynamics that weren't even implemented and praise dynamics en-masse that in all numerical senses were laughably off-base because they 'looked right' or 'felt right'. It's a strange and frankly unhelpful aspect of the sim community that people take 'this feels or looks like my (at best) partially informed guess seems like it should' as accuracy. If you've ever seen experienced, skilled racing drivers trying new cars and cars from different eras the first thing they'll talk about is how different it is and the ways it surprised them.
 
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@Minibull
Interesting thought. You may have a point on this. this quick change on slip angle (in stage 2 and 3) as Chris Harris did on real car might not be well being modeled in sim or such "discontinunity" transition may not be well thought/learned indexed into the lookup table(??) who knows...?

@Guineapiggy
Your notion is well taken. However, the assumption here as stated in the beginning of post is that there is no field data (real data) for sliding so objective study may not be possible. Such assumption is not baseless though. If you watch the interview video from Co-Founder and Lead Developer Stefano Casillo at Kunos Simulazioni, Assetto Corsa. He said there is no theory to be published on how and where to slide. The sliding state is "black art", there is no data he can compare to.
In the Chris Harris video (how to slide on the BMW), he said too that there is no theory to be written about how to do that (sliding).
 
Minibull said:
I personally think that the inherent lag in our sims are what make it tricky to drift well.
I remember seeing a shot of kimi coming back on track, he cuts a big slide in his f1 car, but absolutely immediately you see his hands whip to correct, and as soon as it comes back out of it, his hands whip back to stop the overcorrection.

When I've looked at slides that made me go "wtf", I always see my actual reactions are just ever so slightly behind the cars movements.
The computer has to process the state, send it to the gpu and out to the monitor, which them has to display it there, and only then when I see it amd process it, can I respond, which has to go back in to the computer and be processed, etc.
As far as I can see IRL, kimi would have had his whole body sensing the slide with just his uber quick reaction times as a delay.

Not saying this is the answer, it's just something I always notice when something goes wrong for me.
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This delay you're experiencing i think is largely due to your hardware or your hardware/FFB settings. This is the sort of reaction that i kept noticing when i first tried rF2 and it's what made me want to try and find a solution. For me it was a delay in the response, but not because of some type of lag in the system, but because of the way the feedback was being sent to the wheel. I had a T500, which is obviously different than your G25, but i'm pretty sure it's the same fundamental issue.

Lowering the STS helps deal with this issue on both the T500 and the AF, so i'm starting to think that it's an issue with basically every wheel based on the way people describe sliding and drifting cars in rF2 to be so difficult. It might not make sense if you don't completely understand how the STS changes the feeling, but adjusting the STS actually gives the impression that you're getting a more direct response and it's because of some balance in the forces that, in my mind 'line-up' and you can find a point where the forces will act neutrally in terms of pointing the front wheels in the direction of travel. For the AF and T500 you have to lower the STS to find this balancing point. So far i've tested the responsive mode AF to be close to this point with the STS at 0.181. With the T500 it felt more neutral at 0.275/6, but that could have been due to the T500 having more internal friction than the AF, and not any particular difference in the way these two wheels work.

That said, there can be a limitation in the hardware itself, where if you don't have enough speed and power, then it really won't matter what you do with your settings, it'll simply be inadequate regardless. The AF doesn't have such limitations, or if it does, then they're completely negligible. If you can't react to quick losses in traction, or have a hard time controlling the cars during a slide in general, it's not because of rF2, or because of some inherent latency in these systems. It's either because of the driver's skill, hardware limitations, or some combination of those.

Here's a collection of slides and mistake-management during a qualifying session i did with the FR3.5:


I have a very good sense of what the car is doing at all times, so it's relatively easy to push the car like this. I know that even if i make a mistake that i can usually catch it and minimize it. I only spun once during that session, never crashed, and i was doing 3 or 4 qualifying style laps back-to-back in each outing, i was getting into the low 1:16's lap after lap. I'm editing this entire session for a full video where you can see everything, but that won't be for awhile. It'll hopefully show the difference that decent FFB can make in terms of the way a person will perceive the 'realism' of a sim.
 
^cool post Paul, good reading eh :)
I'll have to delve deeper into my setup, but then again, why bother, until I get something decent XD

Make no mistake, I can drive the cars fine and catch my slides and twitches. Just that there have been more than a few times where I don't catch it and think "eh?", put the replay on and slow motion, where I see the "delay".

Just something that might play a part sometimes, especially when trying to balance the sliding car
 
The problem, IMO, is that sim cars (with the exception of LFS) don't recover from a drifts/big slides in a natural way. It's got nothing to do with sensory information or hardware/software delays IMO, because even when real drivers react and correct far too late, the car still moves differently even compared to when we anticipate in the sim.

In real life, when the drift ends and the car starts to snap straight, the rear swings like a pendulum about the front. Even when the countersteer is held on too long (see some of the Youtube "drift fails"), it's only once the 'pendulum' has swung some distance back that the front of the car starts steering off in the counter-steered direction. Whereas, in the sims, the moment the rear starts to return, the front of the car starts turning in the same direction of rotation. The result is that the car rotates about a central axis and looks like both ends are sliding rather than the front initially planted and tail wagging. No wonder it's hard trying to keep up with it if you wait for the FFB message. But as I say, even if you anticipate it (as you have to) the recovery phase of the drift looks all wrong; you still see the front trying to dart off immediately the rear has hooked up.

I've just fired up LFS for the first time in a year to confirm my opinion and it's definitely a different looking dynamics, although it's not nearly as violent as real life, and too easy to drift.

Word of caution: if you've a Logitech wheel, they can go off centre if you jerk them around (bits come loose), so don't bugger it up trying to convince yourself I'm wrong about this...unless you really have to. ;)
 
Old Hat said:
The problem, IMO, is that sim cars (with the exception of LFS) don't recover from a drifts/big slides in a natural way. It's got nothing to do with sensory information or hardware/software delays IMO, because even when real drivers react and correct far too late, the car still moves differently even compared to when we anticipate in the sim.

In real life, when the drift ends and the car starts to snap straight, the rear swings like a pendulum about the front. Even when the countersteer is held on too long (see some of the Youtube "drift fails"), it's only once the 'pendulum' has swung some distance back that the front of the car starts steering off in the counter-steered direction. Whereas, in the sims, the moment the rear starts to return, the front of the car starts turning in the same direction of rotation. The result is that the car rotates about a central axis and looks like both ends are sliding rather than the front initially planted and tail wagging. No wonder it's hard trying to keep up with it if you wait for the FFB message. But as I say, even if you anticipate it (as you have to) the recovery phase of the drift looks all wrong; you still see the front trying to dart off immediately the rear has hooked up.

I've just fired up LFS for the first time in a year to confirm my opinion and it's definitely a different looking dynamics, although it's not nearly as violent as real life, and too easy to drift.

Word of caution: if you've a Logitech wheel, they can go off centre if you jerk them around (bits come loose), so don't bugger it up trying to convince yourself I'm wrong about this...unless you really have to. ;)
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Sounds like tire model issues, i think there's too much lateral grip, or the range of lateral grip loss isn't large enough which might cause the issue you're talking about. That said, i'm pretty sure that with the Panoz i can continue a drift after a corner on a straight for a short period and have the rear pull back in instead of the front sliding out, provided that the tires are a bit worn out, because it's possible to do both in a real car and i have done both, both by accident. It all depends on exactly how you're driving and if the car is up for it. I prefer having the entire car neutral at corner exit, i point the car at the exit, open the throttle, and try to line the car up with the direction i want to be traveling in at the end of the corner. What results is called a 4-wheel drift, but you aren't forced to do that in rF2.

I prefer to do that myself since it's a good training exercise because it requires you to balance the car perfectly through the entire corner in order for it to be pointing in the direction you want by the end of the corner, and it's almost an exaggerated version of the way i would normally drive some types of cars while racing. It takes more precision to be able to do this and make it look seamless, than it does to keep the tail of the car hanging out or to regain traction too soon. So even if what you're feeling or seeing is a result of the tire models, it's probably not as big of a difference as you think. The fact that LFS is simply easier to drive probably is the reason why you feel it's somehow different in it's dynamics, when in reality, it's probably just easier to drive it in a certain way compared to rF2, not that rF2 can't be driven in a similar way. I think LFS is easier because things are a bit exaggerated, meaning that you will see the car do relatively extreme things and you'll feel it's easy to do.

EDIT: Another possibility for what you're describing could actually be the STS. If you have a high STS it has a tendency to pull toward the sliding direction much more, meaning that you'll regain traction and the car will stop sliding before your wheel actually starts to straighten out. Which could result in the front sliding out instead of the rear continuing. You can try lowering the STS and try the same thing, if you rely heavily on the steering feedback, you'll probably notice that you can continue sliding much longer.

Minibull said:
^cool post Paul, good reading eh :)
I'll have to delve deeper into my setup, but then again, why bother, until I get something decent XD

Make no mistake, I can drive the cars fine and catch my slides and twitches. Just that there have been more than a few times where I don't catch it and think "eh?", put the replay on and slow motion, where I see the "delay".

Just something that might play a part sometimes, especially when trying to balance the sliding car
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Well there should be some sort of delay considering your wheel. The only way it could be instant is if the wheel is powerful enough to overcome your grip and the weight of your hands/arms on the wheel. Which even in real life won't happen most of the time, you'd only ever have that much torque through the wheel if you're already too far gone, obviously not accounting for bumps and things.

The problem with trying to look at this sort of thing as some type of delay is simply that you can't know for certain if it's actually a delay in the system or in your own reflexes. Based on what i found after adjusting the FFB settings, i went from thinking it was just problems with the sim or hardware, to suddenly not being able to perceive any sort of lag or latency at all. Whatever amount of latency there is in my system is something i can't feel, and i have pretty fast reflexes out in the real world.
 
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Paul Loatman said:
Sounds like tire model issues, i think there's too much lateral grip, or the range of lateral grip loss isn't large enough which might cause the issue you're talking about. That said, i'm pretty sure that with the Panoz i can continue a drift after a corner on a straight for a short period and have the rear pull back in instead of the front sliding out, provided that the tires are a bit worn out, because it's possible to do both in a real car and i have done both, both by accident. It all depends on exactly how you're driving and if the car is up for it. I prefer having the entire car neutral at corner exit, i point the car at the exit, open the throttle, and try to line the car up with the direction i want to be traveling in at the end of the corner. What results is called a 4-wheel drift, but you aren't forced to do that in rF2.

I prefer to do that myself since it's a good training exercise because it requires you to balance the car perfectly through the entire corner in order for it to be pointing in the direction you want by the end of the corner, and it's almost an exaggerated version of the way i would normally drive some types of cars while racing. It takes more precision to be able to do this and make it look seamless, than it does to keep the tail of the car hanging out or to regain traction too soon. So even if what you're feeling or seeing is a result of the tire models, it's probably not as big of a difference as you think. The fact that LFS is simply easier to drive probably is the reason why you feel it's somehow different in it's dynamics, when in reality, it's probably just easier to drive it in a certain way compared to rF2, not that rF2 can't be driven in a similar way. I think LFS is easier because things are a bit exaggerated, meaning that you will see the car do relatively extreme things and you'll feel it's easy to do.

EDIT: Another possibility for what you're describing could actually be the STS. If you have a high STS it has a tendency to pull toward the sliding direction much more, meaning that you'll regain traction and the car will stop sliding before your wheel actually starts to straighten out. Which could result in the front sliding out instead of the rear continuing. You can try lowering the STS and try the same thing, if you rely heavily on the steering feedback, you'll probably notice that you can continue sliding much longer.
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Nope, you're missing the point. If the sim driver completely fails to straighten the steering during the recovery stage (maintains full counter-steer), then in LFS you see essentially the same behaviour as you see in real life when the driver is too late. And that's completely different to what an ISImotor sim will do. It's got nothing to do with hard/easy, skilled or unskilled. I have never, ever seen the correct behaviour in another sim. Over 10 years of sim racing however, I have seen lots of videos where people think it's happening correctly when it isn't (IMO).

And I don't need a lesson thanks - I know what a 4-wheel drift is. LOL. ;)
 
Old Hat said:
Nope, you're missing the point. If the sim driver completely fails to straighten the steering during the recovery stage (maintains full counter-steer), then in LFS you see essentially the same behaviour as you see in real life when the driver is too late. And that's completely different to what an ISImotor sim will do. It's got nothing to do with hard/easy, skilled or unskilled. I have never, ever seen the correct behaviour in another sim. Over 10 years of sim racing however, I have seen lots of videos where people think it's happening correctly when it isn't (IMO).

And I don't need a lesson thanks - I know what a 4-wheel drift is. LOL. ;)
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What videos of this behavior in real life are you talking about? This would make things a lot easier to know what you're saying. Since it sounded like you were only distinguishing between a drift where the car straightens out by having the front sliding back out vs the rear sliding back in, and if you're saying it's neither of those, then it's a 4-wheel drift.
 
@Paul,
Thanks for posting, but I somehow could not open the file.
Quick question: were you trying to slide just like as Chris Harris did on his teaching video (step 1-3)? If not, it will not help though. I would not be able to tell if the sliding is realistic or not without referencing his. This is whole purpose of this post.
 
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Joe said:
@Paul,
Thanks for posting, but I somehow could not open the file.
Quick question: were you trying to slide just like as Chris Harris did on his teaching video (step 1-3)? If not, it will not help though. I would not be able to tell if the sliding is realistic or not without referencing his. This is whole purpose of this post.
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You need to place the replay into your replay folder and play it from rF2.

I'm driving the Panoz, it's not the same car as the BMW he's using in that video. However, the driving is more or less the same as what he's doing, the difference to me seems like his car has more grip, probably due to both tires and suspension.

I've consistently drifted in an S2000, and two different RX-7's in the real world, the only major differences i see are differences in the small details, but the overall dynamics are very accurate in rF2 even considering the relatively old tire model on the Panoz. It's accurate enough that i didn't have to learn how to do it in the sim.
 
Who said that this forum is only for new to rF2? Using your brain before typing comments like that, otherwise make you look so retar$$. Surely, no short of idiots here who is willing to echo such ,,,,, repeatly.
"toxic"? you must be joking. I bet the subject of this post maybe worth more than your total sum of threads in your lifetime here.
 
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Joe said:
Who said that this forum is only for new to rF2? Using your brain before typing comments like that, otherwise make you look so retar$$. Surely, no short of idiots here who is willing to echo such ,,,,, repeatly.
"toxic"? you must be joking. I bet the subject of this post maybe worth more than your total sum of threads in your lifetime here.
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You know the 'toxic' comment wasn't directed at your post, right?
 
This thread is a completely objective way to judge physics, not quasi-objective. It all comes down to your interpretation, and the assumption that you have the skill to drift.
 
You could make a very arcade game respond "correctly" to the described inputs without having any proper physics behind it.

Or did you mean subjective?
 
@Paul, I watched your video. Some of nice sliding. By watching your video, I am still could not conclude however. I 100% understand what you said.

@PLAYLIFE and @Lazza, I guess a "survey" probably is more "scientific" way to get a meaningful result on this. It could be more or less like this:

In his video as he taught three stages: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LpPc8qutCA

Can you carry out these stages on at least three rF2 cars (rear wheel drive)

Stage 1 (Y or N)
Stage 2 (Y or N)
Stage 3 (Y or N)

Does this sound more "objective" to you?
If majority results showed all "Y", then the physics is correct.

(PS: keep in mind "full throttle" he mentioned all the time and showed in video --- he did many cars like just like this).
 
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