boblevieux
GTR Evo in 2011
Proper setup, skills.
Guineapiggy
Ignoring all other issues this right here is the killer for this test. You could, with a little bit of effort put the kind of drifting seen here in to Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing but that doesn't mean you won't accelerate infinitely in reverse or drive up vertical hills with no resistance.
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Spinelli
+11
+111Nope, you're missing the point. If the sim driver completely fails to straighten the steering during the recovery stage (maintains full counter-steer), then in LFS you see essentially the same behaviour as you see in real life when the driver is too late. And that's completely different to what an ISImotor sim will do. It's got nothing to do with hard/easy, skilled or unskilled. I have never, ever seen the correct behaviour in another sim. Over 10 years of sim racing however, I have seen lots of videos where people think it's happening correctly when it isn't (IMO).
And I don't need a lesson thanks - I know what a 4-wheel drift is. LOL.
Cars in real-life don't all of a sudden act as if the laws of physics broke/changed just because a driver might have been too late with their inputs.
The issues are purely a vehicle behavior issue - nothing to do with FFB, input lag, driver skills, or, for that matter, whether you saved the car, spun, half-spun, over-corrected, etc.
The following explains it fantastically in my opinion:
source -->www.lfs.net/forum/post/253018#post253018
That is exactly what I sense/see/feel as-well - that ISI physics tend to fall apart and get "digital" and unnatural once you start pushing the limits. Until then, they are, for the most part, great - possibly the best in the industry - but then again racing is all about pushing the car, experiencing those limits, fighting those limits, controlling and playing with those limits, and it's at those crucial areas where some of the best physics in all of simracing (ISI physics) fall apart and become some of the worst, unnatural physics in the industry. This is what makes driving the ISI engine so great at times but so frustrating and annoying once you push the car and drive outside of the physics engine's sweet spot.
P.S. That GTR Evo vid looks horrid and highlights some of the issues discussed here (more-so the second half of the slide)
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DurgeDriven
Won't hear a argument from me mate, they all get a bit lucid , you think " how did I ever get through there" .....whatever, you know what I mean
But having said that I think that is a basic flaw in them all, you have ever evolving engines at the bare end of limits.
Thing is what rF2 does at that point is just better then the others....imho.
So as you say yes take the good with the not so good, it is always going to be a compromise.
Paul Loatman
There's no way to know 100% of anything with this method, i just wanted to show that it is possible to make big drifts consistently in rF2. I don't think anyone realistically believes that it's 100% accurate, most people know that the tire models are the limiting factor here, and even the pro sims that F1 teams use don't have that aspect working perfectly yet.
I'm always interested in seeing what happens with the cars with a new build if they've done something with the physics, it's always improving, and always something to look forward to.
DurgeDriven
Doing burnouts and rollbacks tells me all I need to know about physics.
It is all tied up in there for me.
Simply put I believe the best physics always do the best most controlled and realistic burnouts , best flicks, rollbacks, etc etc .
Try doing burnouts.
pCars .... what a joke........
AC .........absolutely mind numb-lying canned, you don't need to worry about throttle control or tyre heat, it will just keep spinning the same.
You get nice car control and feeling but then after a dozen donuts when you suddenly lift off 500rpm it just magically grips ? Like the car is not even sitting on 1/2 melted tyres.
If physics can't replicate even a little of a realife burnout with interia and chassis and body roll and all the other stuff you get going on in a real burnout then it's lame physics for me
I have done 1000's realife in powerful cars.
That is where other physics break down for me.
No, I am not saying rF2 does it realistically 100% ..... just much better then anything else
and that is down to the physics and tyres.
It is all tied up in there for me.
Simply put I believe the best physics always do the best most controlled and realistic burnouts , best flicks, rollbacks, etc etc .
Try doing burnouts.
pCars .... what a joke........
AC .........absolutely mind numb-lying canned, you don't need to worry about throttle control or tyre heat, it will just keep spinning the same.
You get nice car control and feeling but then after a dozen donuts when you suddenly lift off 500rpm it just magically grips ? Like the car is not even sitting on 1/2 melted tyres.
If physics can't replicate even a little of a realife burnout with interia and chassis and body roll and all the other stuff you get going on in a real burnout then it's lame physics for me
I have done 1000's realife in powerful cars.
That is where other physics break down for me.
No, I am not saying rF2 does it realistically 100%
..... just much better then anything elseand that is down to the physics and tyres.
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Korva7
Imo one thing that could cause that difference is what you do with throttle when you recover from a slide. In car review videos they apply throttle when car is recovering from a slide so the rear doesn't suddenly grip and throw car to rotate to other direction.The problem, IMO, is that sim cars (with the exception of LFS) don't recover from a drifts/big slides in a natural way. It's got nothing to do with sensory information or hardware/software delays IMO, because even when real drivers react and correct far too late, the car still moves differently even compared to when we anticipate in the sim.
In real life, when the drift ends and the car starts to snap straight, the rear swings like a pendulum about the front. Even when the countersteer is held on too long (see some of the Youtube "drift fails"), it's only once the 'pendulum' has swung some distance back that the front of the car starts steering off in the counter-steered direction. Whereas, in the sims, the moment the rear starts to return, the front of the car starts turning in the same direction of rotation. The result is that the car rotates about a central axis and looks like both ends are sliding rather than the front initially planted and tail wagging. No wonder it's hard trying to keep up with it if you wait for the FFB message. But as I say, even if you anticipate it (as you have to) the recovery phase of the drift looks all wrong; you still see the front trying to dart off immediately the rear has hooked up.
I've just fired up LFS for the first time in a year to confirm my opinion and it's definitely a different looking dynamics, although it's not nearly as violent as real life, and too easy to drift.
Word of caution: if you've a Logitech wheel, they can go off centre if you jerk them around (bits come loose), so don't bugger it up trying to convince yourself I'm wrong about this...unless you really have to.
Also how and which part of the car the replay camera follows can make things look different compared to real life and other sims.
Paul Loatman
The underlying reason why you can do both is due to momentum and weight transfer. You can control how a car rotates by using every input; the steering, brakes, and throttle in some combination. It all depends on the situation, since you need to apply an input based on the at-the-moment status of the car. If the car doesn't have enough momentum and torque from being too low in the rev band, then it won't matter if you have your foot flat on the throttle, you won't continue to rotate just because you feel like drifting. That's what i think of when people say things about how the cars don't rotate the way they think it should.
You can also lift or reduce the throttle to induce oversteer in a lot of cars, usually helpful at the start of a drift, but can also help mid corner in some cars in some situations, but the steering input here is also important. If you're in a big drift with a lot of counter-steer, and suddenly lift the throttle, you're liable to have the car suddenly swing in the other direction. Time this well enough while reapplying the throttle once in the other direction, and allow the steering to correct itself and you can have a continuous drift from one corner to another. If you don't time it well enough, or simply don't understand what's happening, then you'll end up in a tank slapper because you wouldn't have known to correct the steering, or to reapply the throttle.
You can use the brakes to continue a drift in a single direction. Useful if you're going into a reducing radius corner, where you want to be increasing the angle of drift as you get further into the corner. Therefore, using the brakes won't be useful in stopping the drift.
These basic rules apply to most cars and are the main reasons why a lot of people end up in barriers or off track without understanding what happened. All of these rules and many more apply more-or-less as they should in a realistic way in rF2. The only way to know for certain if any of these inputs are off by any amount is to have a lot of experience in the real-life counterparts of these cars or to compare a lot of data. I think it's fine to speculate and to share opinions and ideas, but it's ridiculous for someone to watch some videos on youtube without understanding some or any of this and to claim that things aren't correct as if they're stating facts, all while having no experience or raw data from the real-life counterparts.
Old Hat
I've been trying to find a polite way of responding, particularly to this bit. But gave up. LOL
Paul Loatman
I guess that implies that you take offense to what i said. Which also implies that you feel like you have a reason to take offense to it. I can't say if it was directed at you or not, since i have no idea what you do or don't understand. That should be implied since you told me that i was missing your point, and when i asked you for more information, you never bothered to respond.
I don't understand why you're struggling to respond to me in a 'polite' way, why does politeness even factor into this discussion? If you think what i'm saying is wrong, then just say why, this is a place specifically meant for discussing these topics, and just because we may disagree doesn't mean you have to take things personally.
Joe
Hi Guys:
Thanks for your time and comments and replies. I think all your comments in some parts do make sense. But I realized now that any further explain or argument will not lead any conclusion on this topic. I think we may just call off here (do not want to get into nasty wording war here). However, I do not regret to post this I think it is interesting topic.
BTW, if you do want to contribute to a meaningful result, you may consider being a humble yourself to watch Chris Harris video and try yourself on rF2. Then cast your vote on those three questions I have (no word, video, pic, and question please, just "Y" or "N"):
In his video as he taught three stages: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LpPc8qutCA
Can you carry out these stages on at least three rF2 cars (rear wheel drive with factory default setup)
Stage 1 (Y or N)
Stage 2 (Y or N)
Stage 3 (Y or N)
Peace,
Led566
Track Malaysia NLoop
Car Corvette GS
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (N)
Stage 3 (N)
Track Malaysia NLoop
Car Corvette Z06
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (Y)
Track Malaysia NLoop
Car Panoz
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (N)
Stage 3 (N)
Track Malaysia NLoop
Car Honda NSX R
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (Y)
Track Malaysia NLoop
Car AC Cobra
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (N)
PLAYLIFE
I'm not sure why factory default setup is a requirement? I wasn't under the impression that rF2 default setup was a true reflection of how the real car is setup. I may be wrong in thinking that, but I don't ever remember reading anywhere that the default setup is a reflection of a real setup (I suppose this is only valid for road cars anyway, as opposed to racing cars).
Joe
Led566, thanks.
others, would you like to contibute this poll? If we have 10 people or so the results would be much meaningfull.
others, would you like to contibute this poll? If we have 10 people or so the results would be much meaningfull.
peterchen
Meaningfull?? This complete thread is meaningless!!
And what for? That you can post on AC-forum "I have the proof: AC-physics is more lifelike then rF2´s!", or what?
You clearly saw with videos posted from other titles (and from houndreds of rF2-vids on youtube) that your "quasi-objective way" means a sh!t!
And what for? That you can post on AC-forum "I have the proof: AC-physics is more lifelike then rF2´s!", or what?
You clearly saw with videos posted from other titles (and from houndreds of rF2-vids on youtube) that your "quasi-objective way" means a sh!t!
Joe
again please stay away from this thread. If you have no life else, troll some wherelse. if ur IQ too low to understand, go somewhere else to ****.
Gonzo
People lets get back to a normal behaviour.
Korva7
With roadcars: Panoz, BMW Z4, corvette z06, Honda NSX, Cobra I was able to do all stages in similar way as chris harris, except with cobra half throttle was my full throttle.
With racecars totally different story.
With racecars totally different story.
Joe
OK, thanks:
Car Corvette Z06
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (Y)
Car Panoz
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (Y)
Car Honda NSX R
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (Y)
Car AC Cobra
Stage 1 (N)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (Y)
BMW Z4
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (Y)
Statistics from those two so far:
Stage 1: Y=9 (90%), N=1 (10%)
Stage 2: Y=8 (80%), N=2 (20%)
Stage 3: Y=7 (70%), N =3 (30%)
Joe
Car Corvette Z06
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (N)
Car Panoz
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (N)
Car Honda NSX R
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (N)
Car AC Cobra
Stage 1 (N)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (N)
Statistics from those three so far:
Stage 1: Y=12 (86%), N=2 (14%)
Stage 2: Y=12 (86%), N=2 (14%)
Stage 3: Y=7 (50%), N =7 (50%)
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (N)
Car Panoz
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (N)
Car Honda NSX R
Stage 1 (Y)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (N)
Car AC Cobra
Stage 1 (N)
Stage 2 (Y)
Stage 3 (N)
Statistics from those three so far:
Stage 1: Y=12 (86%), N=2 (14%)
Stage 2: Y=12 (86%), N=2 (14%)
Stage 3: Y=7 (50%), N =7 (50%)
Lazza
Anyone posting videos of these (partially, or completely) successful attempts? I'd be curious to see how closely they resemble the OP vid.
boblevieux
Did this with the stock 370z, 3 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLeIOkWFjg
Look how quick i had to bring back the wheel, because the rear is so light, that the grip increase very quickly at the end. (also because of the caster setting)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLeIOkWFjg
Look how quick i had to bring back the wheel, because the rear is so light, that the grip increase very quickly at the end. (also because of the caster setting)
Nitrometh
Wow. I can't remember that rf2 looked that creepy about three years ago. xD
Gesendet von meinem GT-I9301I mit Tapatalk
Gesendet von meinem GT-I9301I mit Tapatalk
boblevieux
The track was an old conversion from rF1.
green serpent
I find it very hard to go wide open throttle during over steer in any car. I can do it sometimes, but only if I get the slide perfect.
Here's my opinion, and it's not objective or quasi-objective like the OP wants, it's completely anecdotal.
I have some experience with going sideways in real life, having owned a couple of cars with decent power and limited slip diffs, plus I've driven about five or six other powerful rwd cars (Nissan s14, Nissan gtsT, things like that). In dry conditions, and with enough experience, oversteer is pretty easy to control. The front of the car is very planted, and you can feed in loads of power and play with the steering without too much going wrong. The recovery can be a bit tricky to get completely smooth. There's a small margin of error, but by no means are you on a knifes edge.
Sliding around in wet conditions is a different story. You need to be extremely precise with the throttle to prevent a spin, especially if you initiate the slide before the apex of a corner. You also need to be very exact with your steering inputs because the fronts can scrub easily.
And to me, that's what it feels like in rF2 when over steering. It feels like going sideways in real life, but when its raining. You're on a razors edge. It's too easy to loose the back end (need to be very light on the throttle), and it's way too easy to loose the front end. The front end doesn't feel planted.
rF2 feels awesome within the limits, if it felt slightly more like LFS over the limit, I would say it would be almost perfect. Just my thoughts.
Here's my opinion, and it's not objective or quasi-objective like the OP wants, it's completely anecdotal.
I have some experience with going sideways in real life, having owned a couple of cars with decent power and limited slip diffs, plus I've driven about five or six other powerful rwd cars (Nissan s14, Nissan gtsT, things like that). In dry conditions, and with enough experience, oversteer is pretty easy to control. The front of the car is very planted, and you can feed in loads of power and play with the steering without too much going wrong. The recovery can be a bit tricky to get completely smooth. There's a small margin of error, but by no means are you on a knifes edge.
Sliding around in wet conditions is a different story. You need to be extremely precise with the throttle to prevent a spin, especially if you initiate the slide before the apex of a corner. You also need to be very exact with your steering inputs because the fronts can scrub easily.
And to me, that's what it feels like in rF2 when over steering. It feels like going sideways in real life, but when its raining. You're on a razors edge. It's too easy to loose the back end (need to be very light on the throttle), and it's way too easy to loose the front end. The front end doesn't feel planted.
rF2 feels awesome within the limits, if it felt slightly more like LFS over the limit, I would say it would be almost perfect. Just my thoughts.
LesiU
Right... the post is from 2006, in case you didn't noticed that.
Paul Loatman
I think we need to wait for the road cars and historic cars to be updated with the latest tech before judging things too much about the behavior during a drift. Those are the sort of cars that would be easy to drift around in realistically, but all of them are fairly old in terms of what ISI can currently do.
It's the same with the outdated cars with modern slick tires, but those sort of cars wouldn't be easy to slide around in either way, so the difference there probably won't be as obvious.
That said, when you have a good enough wheel with accurate settings, the road cars feel very similar to a real car during a drift, and the differences don't feel so great once you get that part of the hardware working well enough. I have plenty of room to play with the wheel to control the angle of the drift, but the main thing i always feel is that i have to be a bit careful of the line i choose from the very beginning of the drift, because it's very difficult to control the line that the car takes during the drift itself, which isn't hugely difficult in real life, at least not as much as it seems to be in rF2. Part of that could also be due to the lack of depth perception, since i'm just looking at a flat 2 dimensional surface on my monitor.
Either way, based on the changes that happened with the FISI and DW12 after being updated, i'm pretty confident that the road cars will feel a lot better while drifting after being updated.
Spinelli
Same issues, date is irrelevant.
The issues haven't changed in the FISI or DW12. Still the same 'ol.
Just because you have a wheel that's fast enough for the physics of the game's world doesn't mean those physics are behaving properly. High-end wheel stuff doesn't mean anything. The issues have nothing to do with FFB, your wheel, or if you're even using a wheel in the first place.
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green serpent
Took me a while to nail this slide. So much harder than it looks. (Sorry about poor quality, still learning)
Spinelli
Look how the car wants to keep turning into the corner for like the first half of the slide and look at how it ends (recovers) so oddly not to mention so wobbly (left-to-right) like it's made out of jello. Also, at around the 38 second mark, try giving it full throttle - which will increase the slip angle even more - while applying more steering lock to power out of and straighten out of the slide. I bet that would be much trickier and unnatural than real-life (and sims like Assetto Corsa, Netkar Pro, and Live for Speed). Having said all that, this is one of the best slides I've seen and it still is hardly approaching natural.
green serpent
Same slide but in car view.
boblevieux
Try in the inner circle, and do little lefts-rights to have a better control.
Try to find what inputs variations change the behavior.
Try to find what inputs variations change the behavior.
green serpent
'Little lefts-rights', create huge left-right spins lol. I know what you mean, but in a slide like this once you get it going it's pretty hard to control the line of the car, not impossible but very hard.
green serpent
At 11 seconds (steady steering input), a slight left turn of the wheel would reduce the slip angle and increases turning radius. Turning right (more counter steer) would increase the slip angle and tighten the turning radius. Throttle inputs need to be spot on in both cases. It's possible to reduce/increase slip angle while maintaining the same turning radius, but its very difficult.
Edit: initially during a slide turning the wheel left (away from the direction of the slide) would make the car go left, but eventually it would end up on a larger turning radius. Speed also plays a huge roll in the direction you go. If you give it more throttle and counter steer and you do it perfectly, it can increase your speed and widen your arc. I'm not sure how realistic any of this is because it seems overly hard and complicated. It's just what I've found.
Edit: initially during a slide turning the wheel left (away from the direction of the slide) would make the car go left, but eventually it would end up on a larger turning radius. Speed also plays a huge roll in the direction you go. If you give it more throttle and counter steer and you do it perfectly, it can increase your speed and widen your arc. I'm not sure how realistic any of this is because it seems overly hard and complicated. It's just what I've found.
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Paul Loatman
It's very realistic based on my own experiences myself with my wheel.
I honestly don't see the fundamental difference between this and LFS, the only real difference i can see is that in LFS the front end is much more responsive during drifts, so there's not as much of a delay for your steering inputs to affect the car as it does in rF2, and in LFS all of the cars seem to be able to handle massive amounts of slip angles without spinning. I can see why it would be more enjoyable in LFS, since the cars always obey your steering inputs and you basically don't have to worry about spinning, but i don't think that's very realistic, it's not as if the front tires can't ever lose traction, or that any car can hold a huge slide continuously as if they're all purpose built drift cars. In the real world, only cars purpose built for drifting can do the sort of things that you can do with any old car in LFS. The steering response delay in rF2 could be partially due to the tire models as well, but i think a large part of that behavior is very realistic. I think front tire response will probably get a bit better after the tires are updated, but probably not to the level of LFS, and most of the cars should never be able to handle such huge angles of drifting.
rF2 just seems like it portrays momentum and inertia in a more realistic way, so i can easily imagine if someone has inaccurate FFB that they would most likely have a very difficult time getting into the correct margins to even begin to do continuous drifting in the first place. It all has to be premeditated, you're never going to get realistic seat-of-the-pants feel and generally won't visually see the car react to the steering as dramatically as LFS, so if you can't really feel what the car is doing through the steering in rF2, it will seem as though it's not responding at all or responding unrealistically.
Back to the actual topic in rF2.
If the car has too much momentum into a slide, then both increasing or decreasing the counter steer won't help, it will just continue to rotate. I believe this is the behavior your experiencing, and because you probably can't feel the car through the sim very well, you're probably thinking that it should straighten out and decrease the angle of drift, when in reality you're actually not even within the margins to be able to drift the car continuously, thus your act of increasing the counter steer has no real affect, and since you're doing that at the same time that the car is essentially starting to spin, you put 2 and 2 together and get 7. Like i said before, i think this is a simple issue of mistaking correlation for causation, combined with the fact that you need very realistic FFB to drift these cars around like this. It's one thing to do some fast laps with whatever hardware and FFB setup, but to be able to hold slides accurately and to control the car in extreme situations you need some way to know exactly what the car is doing at any given moment and to even take control of the steering wheel at times for very big, quick corrections. The visuals, sounds and the lack of any seat-of-the-pants feel are simply not enough for that, so a good amount of realistic steering feedback is the best way to get that information from the car, but more importantly it's so you get the accurate behaviors, since if you're wheel isn't fast enough to do what the front wheels should do in real life, then it's obviously not realistic behavior of the front wheels.
Whether the margins for drifting are realistic, or whether the weight distribution is realistic, or whether the traction on the tires are realistic, etc, are all completely different issues related to the car itself and not the underlying physics, these are things i can't know since i've never driven this car. However since i've driven various cars of a similar type in the real world, i can get a decent idea what this would feel like, and i can easily imagine this car existing in the real world and behaving exactly the same way as it does in rF2. Again, i have no idea if this car should be easier or even more difficult to drift, but it is definitely possible and it has to be done in a realistic way too, you can't just force the car to do it like LFS. It's actually not very difficult when you get a feel for it and have good enough hardware and FFB settings.
I just took the ZR1 to the skid pad track and found it relatively easy to get a big drift going after i got a feel for the car. You have to be within a good range of both the turning radius and speed where the car can drift, but once you're there it behaves just as it should in real life.
Here's a video of the longest continuous drift i held in the ZR1, i think i did at least a couple of full rotations:
When i want to correct for more angle, i apply more counter steer. When i want to correct for less angle, i use less counter steer. If i want to apply more angle in the drift then i use less counter steer, not more, using more would mean that you would be correcting too much of the slide and would straighten the car out. Likewise, if i want to apply less angle in the drift, then i simply apply more counter steer to correct for the extra sliding until the car has less of an angle, then i bring back the steering a bit until it's balanced in the drift. Drifting is mostly about being able to balance the car in this way with the controls, and doing it full throttle means you're almost entirely manipulating it with the steering. Again, all of this has to be done within the limits of where the car can drift, it's very much possible to go too fast and to have too much angle in the drift, and just like an actual car, you will end up losing control one way or another in that scenario.
green serpent
It's interesting to compare the two vids. In my video, my throttle inputs aren't very steady. I'm trying to find the balancing point and I'm going up and down with the throttle, and as a result look how the is car wobbling around mid slide. Paul's throttle inputs are smooth and within a much finer margin, the car is balanced, and if you look at it from the outside it look as solid as a rock.
Obviously it takes lots of skill, but the better the hardware, the more accurate feed back you get and the finer you can modulate you're inputs.
Most of the time when I try to drift around a track, I've come to realize that the rear tires are either accelerating or decelerating (i.e gripping a little and not spinning freely). I think this causes the the front of the car to push and the fronts to scrub. I think it causes the 'nose of the car toward the inside of the track', and the 'more counter steer spins the car out' abnormalities that have been discussed. It's quite hard to get the tires spinning freely at the right rate, because there isn't much sensation through the pedals (none) and no sensation through the wheel. You can go by sound, but I think a lot of the time when you think you're doing a burnout, really the rear tires are gripping longitudinally a fair bit.
If you can find the exact point were the rear tires are spinning nicely, and then hold that point, the counter steering should feel and respond naturally. I'm with Paul in thinking that imprecise ffb wheels makes it much harder, and combined with difficulty in holding a steady burnout, I think this is what is causing the strange car behavior and making holding a car sideways feel so hard.
Spinelli, you've said that you believe that there might be an underlying issue with the isimotor physics in the way that it models inertia and that the inertia mysteriously changes direction toward the inside of the track. This might well be the case, and I can entirely see your point because of the way the cars behave in a slide, but something like inertia should be pretty well known math (or maybe not, I don't really know), however, tires are extremely complex so logically I lean toward the tire argument. I bet if you went into the physics model and you reduced rear tire longitudinal grip, and increased front tire lateral grip, you could slide around much more predictably (like LFS). The point is I don't think it's to do with inertia, I think its tires.
Obviously it takes lots of skill, but the better the hardware, the more accurate feed back you get and the finer you can modulate you're inputs.
Most of the time when I try to drift around a track, I've come to realize that the rear tires are either accelerating or decelerating (i.e gripping a little and not spinning freely). I think this causes the the front of the car to push and the fronts to scrub. I think it causes the 'nose of the car toward the inside of the track', and the 'more counter steer spins the car out' abnormalities that have been discussed. It's quite hard to get the tires spinning freely at the right rate, because there isn't much sensation through the pedals (none) and no sensation through the wheel. You can go by sound, but I think a lot of the time when you think you're doing a burnout, really the rear tires are gripping longitudinally a fair bit.
If you can find the exact point were the rear tires are spinning nicely, and then hold that point, the counter steering should feel and respond naturally. I'm with Paul in thinking that imprecise ffb wheels makes it much harder, and combined with difficulty in holding a steady burnout, I think this is what is causing the strange car behavior and making holding a car sideways feel so hard.
Spinelli, you've said that you believe that there might be an underlying issue with the isimotor physics in the way that it models inertia and that the inertia mysteriously changes direction toward the inside of the track. This might well be the case, and I can entirely see your point because of the way the cars behave in a slide, but something like inertia should be pretty well known math (or maybe not, I don't really know), however, tires are extremely complex so logically I lean toward the tire argument. I bet if you went into the physics model and you reduced rear tire longitudinal grip, and increased front tire lateral grip, you could slide around much more predictably (like LFS). The point is I don't think it's to do with inertia, I think its tires.
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Led566
I was thinking EXACTLY the same: too much longitudinal grip while spinning.
And it must be true because the cars are always accelerating, even when in a "perfect" slide.
Chris Harris cars don't accelerate that much...
Paul Loatman
I agree with this assessment. I've previously said that i think there's too much lateral grip, rather than longitudinal like you're saying. My thinking for this is that the cars accelerate forwards more than you would expect because the excess lateral grip forces the car to go the only other way, which is longitudinally, basically to push forwards more than slide sideways. But, i think you're essentially saying the same thing in the end, which is that the balance between lateral and longitudinal grip is somewhat strange which ultimately causes the car to push forwards much easier than you would expect in real life.
I'm not sure exactly what's wrong with the tires, but obviously the tire models are a very complex thing and even ISI have said that they don't have that aspect working properly yet, and we also know that the latest cars have more accurate tire modeling than some of the older cars, which to me feel a lot better.
Spinelli
Nothing to do with FFB, your wheel, your driving skills. It has nothing nothing to do with the driver or his inputs. And it is not even close to the way a vehicle behaves into, during, and out of slides in LFS, AC, NKP, let alone reality.