TChapman500
I think it will be about a year before the first beta version becomes available. My target audience for this thread is to the potential end user.
TChapman500
The object browser functionality is coming together quite nicely. All I need to do is tie the selection in the object browser to the display in the properties window. Here's a quick screenshot.
View attachment 12004
View attachment 12004
TChapman500
I don't know where to begin deciphering the GMT file. One thing's for sure though. If I cannot decipher the GMT file, then any hope of this editor being able to make rFactor tracks is lost.
SPASKIS
TChapman500
I did start (just today). But I don't have any references to go by. I look for references in some sort of viewer/editor, then try to find the same (unique) reference within a HEX editor. So far though, I haven't been able to find any reference points.
TChapman500
Update: I gave up too soon. I found the LOD information.
TChapman500
Good news: I now have enough information about the rFactor1 GMT file to do an experiment. I have a few predictions as to what the results will be. But before I begin the experiment, I need to make a few preparations to ensure accurate results.
R Soul
Happy to hear it. Have you discussed the file structure with Traveler (author of the Blender plugin)? If not, he might be able to proved some useful info.
TChapman500
Thanks for the info R Soul. You can be sure that I'll be in touch with Traveler.
PS: My theory failed the test miserably.
EDIT: FIRST PAGE UPDATED
PS: My theory failed the test miserably.
EDIT: FIRST PAGE UPDATED
SPASKIS
Other have succeeded in understanding the encryption code for gmts. Apart from Traveler you might get some help from Dave Noonan (3dsimed) or less likely from Brendon Pywell (BTB) for the gmt encryption. They might see you as a competitor and refuse thoygh.
However if you all three worked together you might produce the best track designing tool ever made to be the reference platform for modders. It is a shame to see so much independent effort that might get nowhere.
There are other great talents as Mario (3dsmax script), Flypt(3dscan), ... around the forum that I think could be very valuable for that project. You guys could make a small "big company" and cover an unfilled gap around simracing. Think about it at least!
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However if you all three worked together you might produce the best track designing tool ever made to be the reference platform for modders. It is a shame to see so much independent effort that might get nowhere.
There are other great talents as Mario (3dsmax script), Flypt(3dscan), ... around the forum that I think could be very valuable for that project. You guys could make a small "big company" and cover an unfilled gap around simracing. Think about it at least!
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TChapman500
Thanks for the suggestions SPASKIS. I'm certain that BTB will be a competitor. Not sure about 3DSimEd though.
I'm not sure how well "working together" would go. Modding politics anyone?
I will consider talking to Mario and Flypt though.
I'm not sure how well "working together" would go. Modding politics anyone?
I will consider talking to Mario and Flypt though.
freew67
SPASKIS
That program already exist, its called 3D Max.
Maybe your idea of what it should be but I don't share and apparently the OP doesn't either or otherwise any other application rather than max would be useless.
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freew67
Man I even put a smiley face. lol
2k3 already has a editor that is specifically for the game. My guess if you dig in to the files to close you would get a knock on your door from the IR lawyers. They have done it before. BTB is decent but has issues. Mario and Traveler both are using 3d programs that exist and are creating plugins. Traveler hasn't released anything while Mario is basically creating a menu system to help simplify max to a point (never used to it just assuming from photos). With Chaps prog, BTB, and even Sandbox's issue is you are still going to need to make the additional objects in another program. Sketchup? Complete garbage for what we are doing. Simed? Not really an option to create content. I feel Max (which is an industry standard and used to make most if not all content from ISI for rF1 and rF2) is the only available product that can create the content, edit, texture, and export straight to rF. Plus, you can use it to create the 3do objects for 2k3 (which Ive done as well). I hope Chaps program works out but for me I cant beat just working in 1 program for all my modeling needs.
"I'm not sure how well "working together" would go. Modding politics anyone?" I would 100% agree with your comment. Dave and Piddy both charge for their product so I seriously doubt you would obtain much if any info from them. Have you contacted Tim or anyone else within ISI for help or at least a point in the right direction?
2k3 already has a editor that is specifically for the game. My guess if you dig in to the files to close you would get a knock on your door from the IR lawyers. They have done it before. BTB is decent but has issues. Mario and Traveler both are using 3d programs that exist and are creating plugins. Traveler hasn't released anything while Mario is basically creating a menu system to help simplify max to a point (never used to it just assuming from photos). With Chaps prog, BTB, and even Sandbox's issue is you are still going to need to make the additional objects in another program. Sketchup? Complete garbage for what we are doing. Simed? Not really an option to create content. I feel Max (which is an industry standard and used to make most if not all content from ISI for rF1 and rF2) is the only available product that can create the content, edit, texture, and export straight to rF. Plus, you can use it to create the 3do objects for 2k3 (which Ive done as well). I hope Chaps program works out but for me I cant beat just working in 1 program for all my modeling needs.
"I'm not sure how well "working together" would go. Modding politics anyone?" I would 100% agree with your comment. Dave and Piddy both charge for their product so I seriously doubt you would obtain much if any info from them. Have you contacted Tim or anyone else within ISI for help or at least a point in the right direction?
Traveller
I can send you something. I feel my understanding of rF1 GMT's is about 95% certain, while rF2 GMT's is about 85% certain overall-- 95% certain for static GMT's. If I send you Python code, it will have the Class definitions in one set of code and the actual read order in another. I can also modify my old Delphi (Pascal) Type definitions from early 2011 to my current level of understanding-- which is not complete. The Type definitions basically hold the read order. I need to do this anyway in order pay back the one fellow in these forums who's bothered to provide information to me.
I have your e-mail address from about four years ago-- if it's still good. It begins with an aquatic creature. If it has changed, PM here, because mine has changed.
TChapman500
@SPASKSIS
Can you tell me what an "OP" is?
@freew67
I know that there's already a program for NR2003 tracks. To be frank, while I can build decent track geometry with it, it's not good enough for what I want to do. I think I've made it pretty clear that the editor will not be able to convert to or from NR2003. So iRacing shouldn't be concerned with the editor. Dave Nonnan said at The Pits forums that he made 3DSimEd unable to open up stock tracks because iRacing threatened him with a lawsuit. And making the editor unable to open those tracks satisfied iRacing.
"issue is you are still going to need to make the additional objects in another program." I'm thinking of a few features to reduce the number of objects that need to be created in external programs. Notice the word "reduce." Besides, I just use gmax with the FSX exporter, import the FSX model into 3DSimEd, and use 3DSimEd to convert it to whatever I need.
@Traveller
Thanks for your offer. I'll take you up on that. Your help on the 3DO has helped me to understand the PTF (which I feel is the most irrational format out there) I'm about 50% certain on the rFactor 1 GMTs so far. And my email address has changed since then.
Can you tell me what an "OP" is?
@freew67
I know that there's already a program for NR2003 tracks. To be frank, while I can build decent track geometry with it, it's not good enough for what I want to do. I think I've made it pretty clear that the editor will not be able to convert to or from NR2003. So iRacing shouldn't be concerned with the editor. Dave Nonnan said at The Pits forums that he made 3DSimEd unable to open up stock tracks because iRacing threatened him with a lawsuit. And making the editor unable to open those tracks satisfied iRacing.
"issue is you are still going to need to make the additional objects in another program." I'm thinking of a few features to reduce the number of objects that need to be created in external programs. Notice the word "reduce." Besides, I just use gmax with the FSX exporter, import the FSX model into 3DSimEd, and use 3DSimEd to convert it to whatever I need.
@Traveller
Thanks for your offer. I'll take you up on that. Your help on the 3DO has helped me to understand the PTF (which I feel is the most irrational format out there) I'm about 50% certain on the rFactor 1 GMTs so far. And my email address has changed since then.
SPASKIS
I didn't find the smiley funny. I was being serious and your reply was provocative. You are an expert in 3Dsmax and your great tutorials prove so. If someone takes the care to go throughout the different forums he will clearly see two trends. Already expert 3dsmax users that claim that the tool is perfect. People that think that a BTB type tool but more powerful to cover the numerous gaps being left in BTB.
I guess this thread is pointed at the second group. If you think 3dsmax is the TOOL you shouldn't bother even reading it.
Aclaration for chapman: OP= open poster
I don't have time know to extend. I'll do later or tomorrow.
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TChapman500
I'm not sure if this qualifies as being "pointed at the second group" because I'm a Sandbox user and I'm basing the track editor off of Sandbox, and not BTB.
SPASKIS
TChapman500
Okay, I got some help from Traveller on the topic of deciphering GMT files.
@SPASKIS
You said
@SPASKIS
You said
Does it count if you replace the "BTB" part of that statement with "Sandbox" (the NR2003 track editor)? Because what I'm doing is pretty much making a much more powerful Sandbox track editor that can also make rFactor 1 and rFactor 2 tracks.
SPASKIS
I'm not into such specific details. What I meant with BTB type tool is something user friendly where typical tasks for track editing have a specific tool for it. BTB has many gaps to fill but the way it works makes it very simple to use.
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TChapman500
Okay, thanks.
TChapman500
I'm terribly sorry about not keeping this thread up to date. The first post has been updated!
I have just made a breakthrough in the development of this track editor. Progress has taken-off like a rocket!
I have just made a breakthrough in the development of this track editor. Progress has taken-off like a rocket!
Hazi
Nice to hear! Keep going and TIA
TChapman500
TIA?
R Soul
It's nice to see that you're still involved with this. What's the nature of your breakthrough? Is the program able to create objects in any race sim formats? I've looked through the first post, the thread, and the links. I can see your planned features, screenshots of the user interface, and a few things about custom data types, but what would get people excited would be something like a screenshot of a track that your program has made (taken from game, not the editor).
TChapman500
The nature of the breakthrough has to do with the coding side of the objects that will be used to construct the tracks. I've been running around in circles trying to figure out my approach to programming those object types so that they can be put to use. And I've finally figured that part out. The plan is to program all of the types of objects that will be used to build tracks for any simulator, then build a race track as I'm programming the UI so that I'm testing the code at the same time that I'm developing the race track AND the track editor. Once I'm satisfied with the results (eg: able to accurately represent the track and build it so that the sim doesn't crash or otherwise fail to load the track), I'll start the open-beta stage.
By "objects", I do not mean the scenery around the track. I mean the components that will be used by the user to construct the actual geometry of the race track (eg: each segment of the track is an object that the user has placed as well as each section within that segment).
There will be screenshots from the simulator of the tracks built by the track editor.
I have updated the first post to give the various stages of development and indicate the current stage.
By "objects", I do not mean the scenery around the track. I mean the components that will be used by the user to construct the actual geometry of the race track (eg: each segment of the track is an object that the user has placed as well as each section within that segment).
There will be screenshots from the simulator of the tracks built by the track editor.
I have updated the first post to give the various stages of development and indicate the current stage.
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TChapman500
I reformatted the hard drive of my laptop, so there will be a couple of delays as I get everything back online (the editor project is on a separate computer, so it was not affected by the format).
Guimengo
Best of luck and hopefully the momentum is sustained! Grand Prix 4 once had a mystique around its tracks and it took a few years and endless hours of work but a wise Frenchman cracked the code and created a track editor. If you can create a tool that'd cause similar "revolution" for rF2 you could be directly responsible for some dream tracks to make their way from dreams to possibilities.
Peter Read
This looks like a fantastic project. Hopefully all goes well and you learn a lot from coding
Even thou I can 3d model I am still keen to check it out. Looks very promising.
Even thou I can 3d model I am still keen to check it out. Looks very promising.
TChapman500
Thanks. I've been learning a lot about coding over the past few months, even trying different compilers (though this editor will be made exclusively with visual studio).
I've also been thinking about putting this thing on kick-starter.
EDIT: How's this for code optimization: One object type can be used to represent about half of the total types needed to construct the race track (so far).
I've also been thinking about putting this thing on kick-starter.
EDIT: How's this for code optimization: One object type can be used to represent about half of the total types needed to construct the race track (so far).
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TChapman500
I feel like I've turbo-boosted into a wall! I made my breakthrough just days before a disk space crisis. So now all progress on the track editor is halted until almost all programs not essential to the immediate development of the track editor are removed.
Guimengo
That's the best kind of crisis, losing data is the worst!
TChapman500
How true. It's also better than losing 250 gb off of hard drive capacity, which is what I discovered when I tried to transfer the project back to a recently reformatted hard drive.
EDIT: For now, the disk space crisis is over. Progress has been resumed.
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TChapman500
R Soul
It's great that you're paying attention to the behind-the-scenes things. It'll really pay off later on when (not if) you want to update things, and when people are dealing with large tracks with lots of objects and large textures.
How much do you understand the format of gmt files for the two rFactor games? What about the formats used by the other games you intend so support?
How much do you understand the format of gmt files for the two rFactor games? What about the formats used by the other games you intend so support?
TChapman500
For the ISI simulators, I understand a good portion of the GMT file from rFactor 1, but not the MAS or ANM files. I currently don't have any rFactor 2 GMT files to study so I know almost nothing about those file formats. For NR2003, I know a little about the 3DO and DAT files. I also know a good portion of the PTF file and all of the LP file. The SBX file for NR2003 is irrelevant as it is only used by the Sandbox track editor.
I'm focusing more on implementing enough objects with enough features to be able to utilize all of the in-simulator features available for race tracks. Once that is in place, I'll implement a way to save the project files (at the same time, I'll be doing a lot more research on the files that I do not yet fully understand). Once saving of the projects are in place, I'll implement a way to export the project to the selected simulator.
I'm focusing more on implementing enough objects with enough features to be able to utilize all of the in-simulator features available for race tracks. Once that is in place, I'll implement a way to save the project files (at the same time, I'll be doing a lot more research on the files that I do not yet fully understand). Once saving of the projects are in place, I'll implement a way to export the project to the selected simulator.
R Soul
Great news. Mas files aren't so important. They only need to be made at the end, and there are existing tools for that.
Another useful feature would be to have a central place where materials and 3d objects are stored, while also allowing modified versions to be stored in the project's directory, which would take priority.
In BTB some errors can make it impossible to load a project, so it would be wise to think about how your program will deal with problems like that. For example, if a material cannot be loaded for whatever reason, use a brightly coloured placeholder instead, along with something to show the user where it is being used.
It would also be nice to allow the user to modify clip planes. People who make large tracks will like this, and if the distances can be reduced it will make it easy to work with the track in side view without other sections getting in the way.
P.S.R.
Cool project. This reminds me of when everyone said Nords was impossible and then Preclaire total noob came out of nowhere and had a Nords conversion in game with many improvements in a matter of weeks.
TChapman500
Neither are DAT files (NR2003). But it would still be nice to know them. I just don't have to learn them right away.
I was thinking along similar lines, except that each game-supplied track would be its own texture/object pack as well as whatever directory was referenced by all tracks. While at the same time, allowing users to put their own, track-specific textures/objects. The editor would do all of the hard work of making sure that they don't get confused with each other.
This track editor will be designed to be able to open projects with missing textures/objects, as well as being useful as a track debugger if a track fails to load in-game.
I've added this request to the list in the first post. Request accepted.