Horizon Line - You're doing it wrong

ZeosPantera

I figured this would be the most sensible place for this post. If you are building a cockpit and are deciding where to put the screen(s). Please, try to think about what that screen is there to do. It is there to put you in the cockpit. It is not the device you look at to see some car's cockpit and drive via a camera in the headrest. That car should be yours. You are in it.

HorizonLines.jpg


This iRacing setup (presumably at the iRacing F**King Headquarters) shows one of the worst case scenario's I have ever seen. This driver should be sitting in a relaxed position and looking at the natural horizon. However, if he does, he will find himself staring blankly at a pair of gauges that are nearly a foot above where they should be. He instead must crane his neck upward to see the edge of the world.

This sort of fail could be seen as a minor mistake if done by a novice sim racer.

On the other hand it is completely unacceptable for a company bent on realism with seemingly unlimited cash and who's Knowledge and understanding of what a simulator environment should be, to make this sort of mistake.

I urge everyone reading this to heed my advice. Almost more then any other tweak. This simple acknowledgment of matching horizon lines can make almost biblical changes in the FEEL of a sim.

If you can't move your monitor down (or up) you can usually edit your camera to move the horizon to the correct spot. In rFactor you edit the cockpit view's first value in the OrientationOffset line of a mod's .cam file. I don't believe iRacing has that sort of customize-ability, it should.

HorizonLines2.jpg


Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I can't yell at iRacing directly.
 
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Most of companies making so called "professional" (and, of course, very expensive in the same time) simracing rigs, are making such mistakes over and over again (makes me laugh, seeing that) :)
When people finally realize what is that all about, maybe only proper constructions will stay on the market... I hope so.
 
This sort of fail could be seen as a minor mistake if done by a novice sim racer.

On the other hand it is completely unacceptable for a company bent on realism with seemingly unlimited cash and who's Knowledge and understanding of what a simulator environment should be, to make this sort of mistake.
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In the various websites and videos I always see the same thing. I do not understand how it is possible that something obvious is left ignored. Sure not only that a couple of hours should not hurt the neck.

very disappointing
 
Thanks for the advice Zeos! It's quite embarrassing that what could be considered the current leader in simracing makes such silly mistakes.
 
With perspective I would expect that eye line is closer to the horizon than the image above shows. Also, My own desk is exactly the same, but I turn the screen towards my face. Surely it depends on seating position? ie: What if the seat is leaning forward or backwards? For example the upright position in a stock car is totally different to the laying position of an F1 car. It's the neck which moves and the screen just needs to be infront of the eyes in the seat, not at the level of the eyes. No? If you wanted to have a cockpit where you lay on your back then the screen only has to be above your eyesight...
 
Tim Wheatley said:
My own desk is exactly the same, but I turn the screen towards my face.
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Sorry Tim, but your doing it wrong. The human body(head-inner ear) can tell when it is level to the natural horizon and when it isn't even in a pitch black room. Everyone can tilt their head back and their eyes should want to keep looking toward the natural horizon because that is where they are comfortable, if you force yourself to look up, automatically your brain decided that you are looking uphill and it feels un-natural to drive level and not look level. That is why in that picture I posted his head seems level and he is diverting his eyes only.. Otherwise his inner ear would be involved.

If you can move your monitor or raise your seat or adjust the CAM file to get that horizon closer to the real one I would try it and see(feel) the difference. There is science to all this.
 
You forgot to consider the relative position of the camera taking the photo. From one viewpoint you cannot conclude spatial relation with any certainty.
 
I agree with ZeosPantera. I recommend watching this video in its entirety, one can see the different levels of vision.
 
That is a bad set up, it is funny how many of these demo/display rigs are so badly set up, I make it a point to jump on board any I find at trade shows, motor races etc.. most are damn near undrivable but they always know better and tell you you're wrong when you suggest anything. One guy recently at Adelaide Clipsal 500 with twin rigs set up, told me rF was brand new, 2weeks old, I offered to help him set it up better ( the FFB was backwards, steering help on full LOL etc. ) When I said I'd been racing it for 4 years he called me a lair and asked me to leave LOL.

PS the bottom of my screen lines up with lower part of the case on my wheel, but it is a 37 inch monitor.
 
Haha, send him greetings from almost 6 year old rfactor community next time you will see him ;-)
 
lordpantsington said:
Aside from the video directly above this post, I *see* no video here.
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lordpantsington said:
You forgot to consider the relative position of the camera taking the photo. From one viewpoint you cannot conclude spatial relation with any certainty.
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Unless the room is tilted severely and he is using the wheel where his pedals should be and his feet are strait down. I can, with certainty, tell you the camera position is not affecting or skewing our perception of the scene in question.

Even if it were a massive optical illusion the fact that the gauges are WELL above the wheels position is incorrect, improper, inaccurate, erroneous, fallacious, false, mistaken, faulty, incorrect, wrong, unfaithful, infuriating, wide of the mark.

Entire Complaint FIXED (aside from the fact that the actual view on-screen is still bias tword the ground. And The FOV is most likely wrong. You would still need to tweak it for it to be "proper")

ScreenHeightBad.jpg



Using Orientation Offset (and an a few seat adjustments) You can achieve a verity of horizon positions in-game. Keep in mind that nearly exactly the same amount of road is seen in each of these images. The second image is closest to rFactor/most mod's default of (-0.07) The third is my setting of (+0.05) ** NOTE. I have to run the perspective in shot 3 because my monitor is above my horizontal eye position. It has nothing to do with personal preference.

HorizonLines2.jpg
 
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Your photo edits there aren't considering perspective on those photos... His line of sight it going upwards. His eyes are just above the cockpit steering wheel. It's not perfect, but it's not as bad as your edits, either.
 
I think you guys are missing one important factor in all of this...

"Personal Preference"

Remember that just because you like it that way, doesn't mean someone else does or has to.
 
If we are talking about 'simulation' there is no place for subjectiveness. Simulation is a process that makes virtual world as close as possible to real world.
So we are talking about how to set things in best way to reach best possibly (means most realistic) result.

Out of this subject you can set your seat anyway you want. No one will force you to do that correctly.
But I'm sure you wouldn't set your seat in real car to have gauges just in front of your eyes ;)
 
Tim Wheatley said:
Your photo edits there aren't considering perspective on those photos... His line of sight it going upwards. His eyes are just above the cockpit steering wheel. It's not perfect, but it's not as bad as your edits, either.
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But the gauges are what is above the steering wheel. What should be above the steering wheel is the top of the dash and start of the windscreen. Gauges in all cars are seen through the top part of the steering wheel.

Here, What is seen directly above all these steering wheels?



Windshields. Keeping in mind that the G25-G27 only has an 11" wheel and most real wheels are 13-15 inches. You can look upon this setup as probably one of the closest. The screen is still 2-3 inches high and I am sure nothing else is tweaked.




GTFREAK said:
I think you guys are missing one important factor in all of this...

"Personal Preference"

Remember that just because you like it that way, doesn't mean someone else does or has to.
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MaXyM said:
If we are talking about 'simulation' there is no place for subjectiveness. Simulation is a process that makes virtual world as close as possible to real world.
So we are talking about how to set things in best way to reach best possibly (means most realistic) result.

Out of this subject you can set your seat anyway you want. No one will force you to do that correctly.
But I'm sure you wouldn't set your seat in real car to have gauges just in front of your eyes
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GTFREAK, Maxym pretty much hit the nail on the head. The things being discussed here have nothing to do with personal preference. The goal of a sim is to be as close to real as possible. Not just physics and tire-models. If you get a simulator it's job is to recreate, to as close as possible, the conditions and surroundings you would find in the real thing. That is what FOV calculations, FFB tweaks and horizon settings are all about. And they can all be calculated with mathematics and measurements. Not everyone's hardware can support that ultimatum but sim racing in general is one instance where something can be right or it can be wrong, period.
 
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Here are some pictures I did up for another topic but an explanation of how it applies should not even be necessary.

 
Very educational post:).
The video clearly shows how the boy is looking up and I do not think that 200 mph was looking at the clouds:)
 
And here's how it may look, when you set up everything as should:

P1230259_mini.jpg



Did you notice virtual steering wheel, right behing the real one? It's there :)

P1230260_mini.jpg


P1230261_mini.jpg



In my case, it's not perfect but pretty close. Of course, without ability to choose low FOV (slightly less than 24 deg.) from rFactor settings, there's no way to drive like this in online events... hope that will change with rF 2 :)
Oh, and that white thing with buttons is kind of an beta/testing version, so don't bother how it looks right now ;-)
 
LesiU said:
Of course, without ability to choose low FOV (slightly less than 24 deg.) from rFactor settings, there's no way to drive like this in online events... hope that will change with rF 2 :)
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Your cam file settings don't get changed during online games even with forced cockpit. At least not in my experience. Still the V-fov slider needs to go lower in-game (15?).. It is posted in the wishlist thread along with what I would like to see as the setup screen for rF2. I got that chance to look at iRacing's and it is terribly unintuitive.

 
Ha! I just had to check that.. and you're right! I thought there will be mismatches or file will be reverted to stock values (like it is with cockpitinfo file, when you want to setup your own seat position) but with cam file it works without problems :) Thanks!
 
Took my setup to a lan recently. Didn't take the 97lb CRT but with a 25.5" samsung mounted up-side-down I was able to enjoy a view not previously possible.

IMG_6624.jpg



Behold, perfection..


IMG_6614.jpg


Had to modify each mod's cam file orientation offset from +0.05 to -0.02 since it is so much lower then my CRT at home.

A bit of a friend driving in the setup (poorly). Wait 12 seconds..

 
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I guess a good setup would be have a first monitor only for gauges / pannel (first plane) and a second screen for the glass windshield (second plane). To project both planes into one screen is a wrong start. Unfortunately few have money & room for to something like that (btw, the IRacing screen on the video is really bad positioned).
 
Ingame model provides you proper size for gauges etc. so you're only missing possibility to physically touch those gauges (but you have to look at the screen from driver's pov to see it is right).
Another solution is to create real gauges and connect them with the sim, while the screen standing behind them.
 
JorgeANeto said:
I guess a good setup would be have a first monitor only for gauges / pannel (first plane) and a second screen for the glass windshield (second plane). To project both planes into one screen is a wrong start. Unfortunately few have money & room for to something like that
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I'd have thought that a while back but that 25" monitor pulled that view off pretty well. If it were a 32" it would be perfect, and 32" tv's are getting dirt cheap! http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889104157

LesiU said:
Ingame model provides you proper size for gauges etc. so you're only missing possibility to physically touch those gauges (but you have to look at the screen from driver's pov to see it is right).
Another solution is to create real gauges and connect them with the sim, while the screen standing behind them.
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Ironically, I happen to have those exact Porsche gauges out of a 997.. But alas I dont wish to destroy them less someone makes a rock solid tutorial on how to wire them.
IMG_6653-1.jpg


(ebay, miss-categorized, $60 with shipping.. that same cluster is on there for 900+ )
 
ZeosPantera said:
Sorry Tim, but your doing it wrong. The human body(head-inner ear) can tell when it is level to the natural horizon and when it isn't even in a pitch black room. Everyone can tilt their head back and their eyes should want to keep looking toward the natural horizon because that is where they are comfortable, if you force yourself to look up, automatically your brain decided that you are looking uphill and it feels un-natural to drive level and not look level. That is why in that picture I posted his head seems level and he is diverting his eyes only.. Otherwise his inner ear would be involved.
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Interesting topic. My view is that we as sim racers have to learn to "disconnect" our inner ear input. The fact that what we see isn't synchronised to any inner ear inputs in a static environment are what lead to simulator sickness and why some excellenet real world race drivers simply can't get on with sims.

We have to adapt to this and also, unless we have a projector system, a scaled world - few of us have screens large enough to equate to a car windshield - just stick your hands out as far as you can see them vertically and horizontally in your peripheral vision to see how big that should be and that is before you move your head.

Creating a genuine 1:1 environment is a great goal but for the vast majority it is a little bit like we are driving on TV, however, our brains are capable of making that feel real - we are doing a fair bit of translation to convert these images into what we feel.

I think most of us are very capable of dealing with variances in height and it quickly becomes "normality" for our view of the world from the cockpit.

Without a full 1:1 environment creating 1:1 views of cockpits becomes a very tunnel vision view so there are arguments either way and as stated a lot comes down to personal preference and how our brains are wired - remember that some can't do this at all due to the missing inner ear inputs whilst others need to find how best to substitue this aspect.

Cheers
Tony
 
am i in the right forums lol i only see iracing and rfactor pro are you sure you have your fov an the seat in the car in the right place??
 
TonyRickard said:
few of us have screens large enough to equate to a car windshield
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The screens don't need to be as big as a windshield. They just need to take up the same amount of vision as a windshield does. Having just two small-ish monitors could probably accomplish the task as long as they were closer to you then the windshield. Just see my FOV thread in my signature.

michael1 said:
am i in the right forums lol i only see iracing and rfactor pro are you sure you have your fov an the seat in the car in the right place??
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Hi, what?
 
I have three 22" screens reasonably close but it doesn't fill my vision, most especially vertically, plus the side screens really show a view that would require a driver to move their eyes from centre to see. To get a true 1:1 scale which includes both peripheral vision and the ability to move your view as you do everyday driving to work you need a lot more screen area. Getting lifelike sized gauges cuts off a massive amount of vision which negates some of the benefit of a three screen setup to get vaguely close to what a driver really can see.

I do agree you should get as close as you can but would argue without very specialist kit it will be scaled.
 
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TonyRickard said:
I have three 22" screens reasonably close but it doesn't fill my vision, most especially vertically, plus the side screens really show a view that would require a driver to move their eyes from centre to see.
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I would suggest you don't need to see all that much vertically, obviously gauges might add to it but if I had the opportunity to run true perspective on 3 screens and gauges were the stumbling point - I'd go without. As for your side screens showing farther around, such as showing beside your car (90° to your left/right) when the screen isn't (let's estimate 50° to your left/right), you can correct that with lower FOV settings - see ZeosPantera's FOV thread.

Of course none of this compares to having something covering your full forward and peripheral vision, let alone the ability to show 270-300° allowing you to turn your head realistically (some would argue head-tracking can achieve this, and I suppose once you get used to it it's a fair compromise in the absence of a complex and expensive display), but we can make improvements even if we can't get to our ultimate goal - it doesn't need to be all or nothing.
 
Yes, I completely agree though there is most often compromise - e.g. surround vision when you can't physically get the screens to wrap around. The solution maybe be to provide some surround aspect so provide the ability to look and see a car next to you. I hate it when the forward view is shifted using look left/right views and track/ir just doesn't work for me.

My initial response though was to whether the inner ear would give false readings if he horizon wasn't lined up ad I believe the brain can adjust for that just as it can a scaled view. Getting the view as perfect as possible is great for immersion but I don't think is completely essential.
 
TonyRickard said:
My initial response though was to whether the inner ear would give false readings if he horizon wasn't lined up and I believe the brain can adjust for that
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HorizonLines.jpg


Ignoring the entire Inner ear discussion. You do agree that the setup above looks wrong. A foot of black between wheel and windshield and putting the cars gauges at eye level.
 
I do agree it would be better lower, yes. However, I look at the "perfect" views shown earlier in this thread for a single screen and think that whilst great as a driving view it makes for a poor racing simulator by not seeing what race drivers see. My personal view is the height is less of an issue than the narrow width but we may have to disagree on that one :)
 
Tony, I agree with you (and Tim) about the inner-ear thing, as someone who gets motion sickness (in real life) I've never thought the inner-ear had anything to do with comfort when playing games - the only time I've felt nauseous was when watching one of Zeos' videos with low FOV, and I'm pretty sure that was just having the view panning around so much without enough vision to be able to put everything into context. (and that despite matching the FOV so perspective was 'true'). Conversely someone I know struggles with computer games because of their artificially high FOV, can't go more than a couple of minutes without feeling ill - and he has no issues with motion-sickness at all.

I recently lifted my screen up about 4 inches and felt like I was looking up - until I looked at the window blinds beside me and realised my eyes are still only a couple of inches below the top of the screen. So there's no doubt you get used to whatever you use; it took a day or two to get used to where it is now.

The only thing I would say, is that there is something about having bridges etc. in the game being above you - but I think as that tends to come with using a large screen, the sheer size is also a factor.

Still, as far as 'proper' sim setups go, you'd think if you go to all that effort you would make it realistic in every way possible. (but then you look at tracks, and wonder why they spend all those hours making it and then fail to have timing objects stretch all the way across the track/pitlane, or put pit entry/exit lines in the wrong place, etc :D)
 
It seems that screen was set up for the purpose demonstration, not simulation i.e. to let anyone film or observe a simulator in action, while (greatly) compromising the simracing experience itself for those in the seat. I think that's the reason why in many of those demo events the screen placement is so shockingly wrong.
 
In the full video you see about 5 of those exact same "simulators" lined up against a wall in what appears to be iRacing's corporate headquarters.
 
Interesting discussion going on here. Let me first say that I am currently trying out the 'realistic' FOV thing that ZP has suggested, and so far I'm really digging how much more accurate the distances feel. In fact, I find myself braking WAAAY early because I'm still used to the corner looking like it's farther away! hahaha I definitely miss being able to spot my apex at the turn-in, though--but that could be remedied with a triple monitor setup. Anyway, I digress...

I agree that the screens from iRacing are most likely set up for demonstration purposes rather than to offer the most realistic simulation possible. Have the screen high up because that's what attracts peoples' eyes at shows and the like. They probably just use the same rigs for in-headquarters marketing as they do for trade shows. And don't forget that 'for marketing purposes', they're going to want to show off their cockpits--certainly not possible if they try to match horizons and use proper FOV.

As far as the theory about adjusting the seat position, camera tilt, etc. goes. I agree with you 'in theory'. However, practicality gets in the way. First off, matching the steering wheel like your picture only works if your controller wheel is the same diameter as the wheel on the car in the sim. Also, your seating position, posture, etc. plays a factor in how the cockpit camera should be placed. For instance, my setup requires me to sit quite upright; however, I mostly drive open-wheel cars. The seating position in most open-wheelers is such that your can barely see over the steering wheel. However, my eyes are probably a good 8+" above my wheel in my setup. In which case, it begs the question of which is more "simulation"? To match the view to my setup? Which would result in an incorrect 'simulated' view for driving an open-wheeler. Or to match the view to the posture one would actually have in an open-wheeled car? In which case I would have to rotate the view so far down in the cockpit I'm looking at the foot well, because my eyes are about level with the top of my monitor (ergonomically correct for working at the computer). Ideally, I'd match my real-world posture to that of the virtual cockpit, but again, you run into practicality issues whenever you want to switch from one type of car to another as I often do. So, for me, because I'm able to put myself into the POV of the camera, the default settings are usually the best (i.e. matching to what one would really see if in such a car).

The advantage Red Bull have with their simulator is that they only have one vehicle to simulate. Hell, they even use the cockpit from the actual car in their simulator to get around this problem completely!

-Chris
 
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