[OT] Anyone believe that pCars will become a real sim racing game when its released?

Jerry Luis

If not, just take look of wasted graphics capabilities:

[video=vimeo;79020130]http://vimeo.com/79020130[/video]

Sry for opening a thread just for doing a question that i probably already know the answer, but these graphics simply amazes me.

ps1: The formula cars it was the best of all i think
ps2: Forza is another title that impress me a lot from their Silvertone screenshots i see other day
 
First of all -- what a classy video :)

In short, yes I do believe it will be a sim from that conventional use. There is still a fair way to go for the product which won't be released for another year but I'm very encouraged by the work in the tyre department in particular (FFB needs to match it though generally).

I did some tyre temperature tests with the McLaren GT3 at Northampton -- sunny day in spring. After talking to a GT3 driver about tyre temps generally, the figures we have for the default tyre appear spot on for the time it takes to get up to temperature, the temperature the tyres reach and the expected overheating temperature during an errant spin.


6bim.jpg



Below is the transition from Lap 1 (white/grey line) to lap 4 (colours) - note the spin in lap 1:


t6ji.jpg


Did some further testing too in the GT3 McLaren with the slick v hard compound GT tyres, looking at their temperature variations. As expected, the soft tyres run a little bit warmer as this simplified graph shows below (FL and RL ... slick(colour) hard (grey). This was lap 3.


rjs7.jpg



And here is soft slick (colour) v default (grey) for the corresponding lap (4):


gkti.jpg



Looking pretty good I'd say.
 
I think it'll be a good sim, they still have a full year to improve physics
 
Why are the tire temperatures a indicator for a good sim?
I think all these games, that are also developed for consoles (even the Wii! in this case), will never be able to simulate as much in the physics department, as the PC-sims do.
But i sure hope this title will at least be drivable nicely someday, because the graphics and licenses are great!
 
I think it will drive well enough that sim racers will call it a simulator to give themselves the right to play a pretty game that's a bit off in the physics department.
 
That last scene.....car waiting on track for his opponent and as he passes by music is playing to raise the tension....and then he go's for pursuit....
Yeah, its going to be targeted at real simdrivers :p

(don't really have an opinion btw)
 
My answer... no.

I`m not knocking it so don`t jump on me but no... I don`t think any game that`s a console cash cow (even going to the Wii :rolleyes:) can be classed a real simulation of driving.

It`s not possible imo.

I`ll be interested to see where this is in a year or so but sim...

No. :)
 
JJStrack said:
Why are the tire temperatures a indicator for a good sim?
I think all these games, that are also developed for consoles (even the Wii! in this case), will never be able to simulate as much in the physics department, as the PC-sims do.
But i sure hope this title will at least be drivable nicely someday, because the graphics and licenses are great!
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Because they are the most important factor determining tyre behaviour, and the tyres are the most important factor determining car behaviour. If you look closely at the graphs, they will tell you a good deal about the way the physics operates on this particular car.

I thought as you do about PC only sims about a year ago, but this product is PC-based in the first instance, and the consoles will be variations of the full monty physics / graphics engines.

So in short built for PC, but available also in other versions, perhaps with some recalibration of fidelity (although the new consoles' computing power may mean that is not really necessary). Also remember it's a pretty big team working on pCARS.

Yes some great licenses -- just need to nail some great official tracks now.
 
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tjc said:
My answer... no.

I`m not knocking it so don`t jump on me but no... I don`t think any game that`s a console cash cow (even going to the Wii :rolleyes:) can be classed a real simulation of driving.

It`s not possible imo.

I`ll be interested to see where this is in a year or so but sim...

No. :)
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But if it didn't, it automatically would?
 
my answer = No.

It will be the next GT/Forza, like Asseto Corsa, they are developed to have impresive graphics, and not impresive physics, they are simarcades, they arent simulators, there are only one simulator: rFactor 2.
 
I think part of the problem is the perception that great graphics and visuals can only be achieved at the expense of fidelity in the physics department. Entirely reasonable as this is how it has been in the past. pCARS started off from a bit of a dodgy base physics-wise even though the visuals were already very impressive.

I'm sure many here are pCARS members but I am also pretty sure not everyone keeps a close tabs on the physics and most importantly the tyre development that constantly pushes on. My tests using telemetry often make me smile with their results. The focus is delivering more of that goodness through to the wheel through tweaking the massive number of FFB variables I am sure is most of the issue.

Hopefully there will come a point fairly soon when the developers will start shouting about the physics more -- such as analysis pieces posted and advertised on the front page of the pCARS site to allow people to see that it's not just good visuals.

Remember too, the plurality of the racing sim market is the key to its longevity and future success. And just for clarity, I'm just a bog standard senior member, so have no interest in talking up the product for financial returns. I say say it as I see it (as they sometimes see at pCARS, hehe).
 
No, I don't believe so, it's to far down the line now, it's pretty much found its market ....for those it appeals too
 
Lets face it with Videos like that, It'll sell piles and piles on all formats regardless if its a sim, a simcade or whatever.
 
Pre Scriptum (does that exist?): Sorry for my English, hard to express those kind of stuff not in your native language, hope I didn't write below nonsense or contrary of what I'm thinking. And yeah, that's just my opinion off course ;)

First, JonZ is a Master God trailer maker, period. This guy rules and will be able to make an amazing trailer just showing a phone book, and phone companies will run out of stock.

Second, I hope they will be able to reach what they want to reach. They know they have a past which don't serve them to make believe to the mass they can do a real simulator ala rF2. They are fighting to prove they can go further than what was due to publishers they worked for. They get rid of any publisher to be able to do what they wanted to do. I have big hope as in one year I saw so many improvement on physic department. They had to first go to graphics to bring people into the project, and they sure know how to appeal on graphic side. Now from past months they focus a lot on physics and FFB and make amazing progress, even if lot of work still need to be done. Possibly Project Cars 1 will not go enough further for our current taste, possibly only a Chapter Two or Chapter Three will reach that, anyway I have lot of respect due to the wishes of this team and the work they do to reach them.

Third, it's a really smart and nice team, real professionals and really good technicians with open minds. I enjoy to share, discuss, participate when I can with those Guys. Releasing a nearly daily build for mass people is an huge and difficult work, and that imply a perfect method and organisation which impress me (as a dev, and a game dev in my previous life).

And I don't think the fact they also plan consoles mean the PC version will be lowered. Consoles version will be lowered if needed due to possible technical caveats, but the computer version will be as far as they can go. Yeah, I'm respectful of those guys. ISI don't have to prove anything IMHO coming from rFactor and so much really good Sims. rF2 is IMO the most amazing Sim currently running on my computer. SMS will have lot of work to reach such level, and AFAIK they don't want to just reach a level to appeal mass market. They want to reach a certain reputation, a certain level in Sim department. Hat Off for the strength they put on that.
 
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YoLolo69 said:
And I don't think the fact they also plan consoles mean the PC version will be lowered. Consoles version will be lowered if needed due to possible technical caveats, but the computer version will be as far as they can go.
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I don´t think so:
They want to go online. They want to do it on PS4, Xbox one, PC and WiiU!
The versions have to be compatible/ equal in terms of driving experience.
So there is no other way as lowering the computations down to a level which the weakest part (machine,
in this case WiiU) can handle.
So it´s logical that the hole physics model will be way way more simple than what for example rF2 has.

Greets
Pete
 
peterchen said:
I don´t think so:
They want to go online. They want to do it on PS4, Xbox one, PC and WiiU!
The versions have to be compatible/ equal in terms of driving experience.
So there is no other way as lowering the computations down to a level which the weakest part (machine,
in this case WiiU) can handle.
So it´s logical that the hole physics model will be way way more simple than what for example rF2 has.

Greets
Pete
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So that means that the physics will be good? Just like Race Pro's physics were?
 
ViSo said:
my answer = No.

It will be the next GT/Forza, like Asseto Corsa, they are developed to have impresive graphics, and not impresive physics, they are simarcades, they arent simulators, there are only one simulator: rFactor 2.
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quote +10000!!!!
 
pCARS is horrible, when I tried newest build few weeks ago I had to completely disable FFB as it felt so bad.
 
peterchen said:
I don´t think so:
They want to go online. They want to do it on PS4, Xbox one, PC and WiiU!
The versions have to be compatible/ equal in terms of driving experience.
So there is no other way as lowering the computations down to a level which the weakest part (machine,
in this case WiiU) can handle.
So it´s logical that the hole physics model will be way way more simple than what for example rF2 has.

Greets
Pete
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Don't agree at all. They don't really know for now how they will handle this part between Consoles and PC on multiplayer side, no final decision made. And I can ensure 100 % reading devs discussions on WMD forum that they will not lower all Sims just because WIIU is in the loop ;) that will be more than stupid on all sides including sales ones and they are not stupid at all ;)
 
ViSo said:
my answer = No.

It will be the next GT/Forza, like Asseto Corsa, they are developed to have impresive graphics, and not impresive physics, they are simarcades, they arent simulators, there are only one simulator: rFactor 2.
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I have to agree, only because rF2 has raises the bar with it's tire model and real road. I have bought them all. Until more details come out of the sim side of Asseto Corsa , it and pCars are comparable in physics. I do like AC better than pCars, but always go back to rF2 for a true drive.
 
I believe in the proposition that racing cars requires special talent proportional to the race series. Lewis Hamilton would not be paid millions of euros if what he does were easy. Would you want to drive a real life 1967 spec Lotus 49 around the 1967 version of Spa at anything close to the speeds they drove in 1967? The problem for developers becomes that an accurate simulation of a Lotus 49 (or any other car) will require some talent to race in the virtual world. (I suspect that current sims are more difficult than reality in some ways and easier in others.) This talent requirement clashes with the purpose of PC and console games to sell fantasy. Papryus discovered that GPL's fantasy of crashing and burning was not what most wished to fantasize about, and its reported GPL sold poorly. Casual gamers are not willing to put the work in required to be merely mediocre.

In the real world most race in lower series than say F1 or Nascar's Sprint Cup. Lower formula are frequently designed as feeder and trainning series and tend to be easier. Again racing Skip Barbers clashes with the casual gamer's fantasy that he/she is Gilles Villeneuve hanging the back out all the way around the circuit. Never mind that in reallity there has been only one Gilles Villeneuve. If you define simcade as having relaxed physics that flatters the gamers ability then it makes sense for developers to produce simcades. The talk of multiplatform release makes me suspicious of a developers intention to not produce a simcade.

IRacing has apparently tried to avoid the simcade trap by selling its wares to race fans rather than just to gamers. With repect to ISI I'm not sure gamers are their main customers but rather licensing to other companies and so hopefully they are committed to producing a quality sim. So far I am very satisfied with my purchase of rF2.
sw
 
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To paraphrase someone at ISI, "It will be an excellent crashing game"(*). Until it's released, though, I'll probably hold my reservations about its driving characteristics particularly after reading various people's subjective thoughts as the development currently stands. The shiny skins need to be toned down a little; too much reflection!

Content-wise, it's got the right things going for it. However, since there's no modding, creating content falls entirely on the studio, so they'd BETTER do a good job or it won't sell.

(*) The original quote, as I recall was in response to the question of why did we lose rF1's deformable bodies? The answer was that ISI is developing a racing game, not a crashing game. My own thoughts are that if that is true, then why bother with detachable parts? In other words, ISI seems a bit confused about this issue themselves unless the context is that deformable bodies will be a later development because they're not high priority.
 
samuelw said:
I believe in the proposition that racing cars requires special talent proportional to the race series.
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There's a fair amount of truth in this. For instance, I've been trying to come to terms with rF2's tire model, particularly with respect to what feels like a rather sharp breakaway characteristic in the historic tires. I keep vacillating between believing the feel is excellent and that I'm overdriving too much and then I flip-flop and feel like it ought to be more recoverable than it is. Watching my own replays, I can see that the breakaway is a result of overdriving, yet I'm not finding the cues to reach the tire's limit without just blowing by it... perhaps this is where an unrealistic slip angle makes up for the missing cues?
 
I bought into pCARS last year because I wanted some DX11 eye candy to play with. My feeling now is that they've taken too long and even if the final release came out tomorrow, I have so much time and money invested in the rF1/rF2/iRacing communities that there is no need or want for another multiplayer sim.

pCARS will go into the same category as Forza 4 for me... a curiosity that I'll pick up from time to time.

What would it take to win me over?

1) A Linux server executable (that is a big deal for me, the need for a Windows OS makes hosting more expensive than it needs to be)
2) Leading edge physics and force feedback
3) All the people I race with to migrate over.

pCARS: #1 and #2 are possible if they put in the effort. I don't see #3 happening.
rFactor2: #1 is possible, #2 is almost there, #3 will happen within a year.
 
Jerry Luis said:
Anyone believe that pCars will become a real sim racing game when its released?
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Yes.

There's a whole year to go and the progress and change is undeniable. It's hilarious seeing fanboy or deluded posts in this forum about the other available games like pCARS or Assetto Corsa (or some people in pCARS forum about rF2 or Assetto Corsa). It's amazing to see how some are extremely defensive or lack tact for assessing a game, clouding their personal feelings with what they actually believe should be "true."
 
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Emery said:
perhaps this is where an unrealistic slip angle makes up for the missing cues?
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But now you are fudging/"dumbing down"/compromising the physics in order to make up for our lack of feel.

That is not what a hardcore sim should be doing, in my opinion. It's what 2 older sims did with 1 of them not just opinion but technically proven, and judging from video comparisons and lots of peoples comments a real new sim may be doing it again.

In my opinion, what needs to happen is rather than pure physics/handling dynamics being fudged/"dumbed down"/compromised in order to make up for our EXTREME lack of feeling compared to real life, rather than that, the FFB needs to incorporate more info into it in order to make up for our lack of feeling. This way the pure physics of the vehicle dynamics stay as hardcore and industrial as possible but the FFB area of our hardware is used to give us more feelings about the car than you do from just the wheel itself in real life (in real life probably less than even 25% of feeling a car comes from the steering wheel itself).

Basically the FFB itself has to be worked on in order to make up for the lack of feel we have compared to real life, rather than the pure physics/vehicle dynamics themselves being fudged/"dumbed down"/compromised in order to compensate for our lack of feeling.
 
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Spinelli said:
In my opinion, what needs to happen is rather than pure physics/handling dynamics being fudged/"dumbed down"/compromised in order to make up for our EXTREME lack of feeling compared to real life, rather than that, the FFB needs to incorporate more info into it in order to make up for our lack of feeling. This way the pure physics of the vehicle dynamics stay as hardcore and industrial as possible but the FFB area of our hardware is used to give us more feelings about the car than you do from just the wheel itself in real life (in real life probably less than even 25% of feeling a car comes from the steering wheel itself).

Basically the FFB itself has to be worked on in order to make up for the lack of feel we have compared to real life, rather than the pure physics/vehicle dynamics themselves being fudged/"dumbed down"/compromised in order to compensate for our lack of feeling.
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I agree with this completely. I think this is an area where iRacing and rF2 shine. The steering doesn't feel exactly as it would in the real car, but you are getting more information through the wheel, which makes up for the lack of feeling everywhere else.

On that note, is there anyone here who has actually tried pCARS that can give some insight into the FFB in it? For me anyway, the actual physics can be spot on or just approximately close, doesn't matter as long as the FFB feels really good. I'm really hoping that pCARS gets that part right, because everything else about it does look pretty darn amazing, especially the American stock cars (ISI should take note here ;) )
 
Guimengo said:
Yes.

There's a whole year to go and the progress and change is undeniable. It's hilarious seeing fanboy or deluded posts in this forum about the other available games like pCARS or Assetto Corsa (or some people in pCARS forum about rF2 or Assetto Corsa). It's amazing to see how some are extremely defensive or lack tact for assessing a game, clouding their personal feelings with what they actually believe should be "true."
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1+

It's still in alpha stage and things are improving with the latest physics testing. I've been there since summer 2012 and they've done huge steps ahead. So yes, it will be a great sim, maybe not to the taste of hard hardcore simracers, who want everything ultra hard and difficult, but hey, most of the people are not ultras. I believe that having rF2, AC and pCars (i like what GSC2013 has done with rf1 engine too) will leave no wish open, but not a single one of them will be perfect. I'll be more than happy if they all achieve their goals, since it will only allow us to choose from many different titles.

Oh, and BTW, no one ever mentioned nKPro, if you're yearning for realism?
 
No no no

Why is is people think Physics could possibly change that much in any sim from what it was. ???


Has rF2 changed ? Will AC change ? Nah
 
Each sim excels in one or more areas. I think each will improve vastly from the other areas rivals excel in.
 
After reading all opinions, I think if they have at least good ffb and adjustable cockpit position on release date and the option of turn off steering wheel in cockpit view (because no one need another codemasters f1) i´ll give them a shot just for the these graphics.
 
DurgeDriven said:
No no no

Why is is people think Physics could possibly change that much in any sim from what it was. ???

Has rF2 changed ? Will AC change ? Nah
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It's not the physics that's changing, it's the new tire model being tweaked and corrected. Then the driving will be influenced by the different car parts that are also being modeled properly. Don't make the mistake of comparing one game's work based on another (talking about rF2/AC). Personally I don't currently enjoy neither rF2 nor pCARS, in fact I've uninstalled pCARS and will try again a couple of months down the line.

Right now there's plenty of testing happening and some guys with more voice are having a good say on things, there's no need for me to go and validate stuff. It also seems that the voice of reason usually overcomes mindless fanboyism/personal desires when it comes to the development, even if the reasonable stuff is in less amount. The worst thing there can be for a game are biased people "helping" develop it, especially when some people that fall under that category are beta testers. The way people are defensive with their game of choice here rivals that of Playstation vs XBox arguments.
 
Jerry Luis said:
After reading all opinions, I think if they have at least good ffb and adjustable cockpit position on release date and the option of turn off steering wheel in cockpit view (because no one need another codemasters f1) i´ll give them a shot just for the these graphics.
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2 & 3 already done. 1 WIP.
 
My honest opinion after having both rFactor and pCars. rFactor is the die hard racing simulator. pCars is more like a Gran Turismo / NFS Shift mix.
 
Currently pCARS need a lot of work from users to get the most of FFB, tweaking files, etc., and after all this work you start to have something really impressive. It's not enough user friendly to my taste, Alpha build, not at all out-of-the-box, you need to redo all the job for each build, deleting profile, graphics settings, etc. I only donwload a new build each weeks (instead of each days) due to this preparation job, give a shot of few hours, enjoy it, and get back to rF2. But it's more and more enjoyable, it come, it's wip, and the SMS team want to go as far as they can on simulator side...Hope they reach what they try to reach, everybody will win if we have another real sim to enjoy :)
 
FWIW I certainly believe a sim is their aim.

As I see it there are two issues.

1. Can they get their next gen tyre model to work? Not an easy task - all the current next gen tyre models - rF2, iRacing and AC have their critics and aren't quite there yet it would seem. LFSs next gen tyre model also seems to have beaten its developer.

2. The split in opinion as to whether real tyres are forgiving on the limit or unforgiving - the traditional "sims must be hard to drive" vs the alternative "sims should simulate reality and if reality is that tyres are forgiving then so be it." I'm pretty sure SMS fall into the second camp and those looking for an old-style - hard to drive "sim" will be disappointed/pleased that their preconceptions concerning pCARs have been realised.
 
Johannes Rojola said:
pCARS is horrible, when I tried newest build few weeks ago I had to completely disable FFB as it felt so bad.
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Kinda like rfactor before RealFeel.;)

I don't understand all the dislike for pCars. Remember these are the same guys who did GTR, GTL, and GTR2. They delivered a lot with those Sims and I have hope that the same holds true with pCars. I remember when GTR2 came out people called it arcade like because the tire model was different than GTR. Try racing online with 30+ people in GTR2 for a 1 or 2 hour race pushing yourself to stay at the limit and tell me it's not a Sim. I'll reserve judgment until everything is finalized and it's released to the public. Grip does not equal arcade, just like lack of grip does not equal simulation.
 
I think you've confused the developer 'Simbin' (GTR, GTR2) with 'Slightlymad Studios' (pCARS, Need for Speed: Shift). Simbin is doing Raceroom Experience. It's not a terrible racing game (err, hotlapping game rather) but it's not up to standards of rF2 in physics or force-feedback. It's a free-to-play, casual-audience focused game, not a core sim like rF2 or iRacing, but more sim-like than a NFS or maybe GT/Forza.

Edit: I've just looked it up, and apparently there's a common denominator between the two of 'Blimey! games', who've done both under different publishers it seems. My apologies, seems you were right after all.
 
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