Setting up your rFactor FOV - Tutorial

[Spinelli]

Which is why we've been talking about altering the "seat pitch" setting and not the seat adjustment. Seat pitch does in rf2 what seat orientation offset did in rf1. Which is to offset the rendered image to compensate for your eyes not being centered with the screen.

No, what seat pitch does is rotate the camera - as if you were rotating your eyes - to stare more downwards or upwards. The rendered image, the eyepoint, the camera spawning point, whatever you want to call it, is still being created, shot-out, beginning from (whatever you want to call it) the dead centre of your monitor.

With your eyes being below the center of the monitor positive numbers is what you should be using to bring the rendered horizon down to your eye level. The draw back will b that because your eyes are so low "proper" set up might cause you to not be able to see the cars dashboard at all. One of the reasons I have my screens lower then my eyes, I like to see more of the dash. The 46 inch screen might help with that tho.

The offset orientation or now in rF2 called "seat pitch" is basically rotating the camera to point downwards or upwards. Think of the camera as a ball with a little lense on one side. Lowering the seat pitch means the ball/camera is being rotated in order to point downwards (or upwards). Or instead of a cam you can think of it as eyeballs, the in-game driver is rotating his eyeballs to stare more upwards or downwards.

Also, view is always being created from that point - the lense on the ball - and that point will ALWAYS be the dead centre of your monitor. So adjusting the cam in any way, shape or form - to compensate for the real-life player not having his eyes centered (vertically or horizontally) with the monitor - is just skewing the rendered perspective of the monitor no matter what, because the image and perspective of the game is always being rendered from the dead centre of the monitor, and that has only one position, regardless of where you yourself decide to sit in real-life, and that is dead centre betwee the in-game driver's eyeballs (wherever that exact point may be, which we cannot tell with the current system).

 

[whitmore]

the position of the man's eye level and screen height are just like mine

 

[Slamfunk3]

the position of the man's eye level and screen height are just like mine

And what u want to do is bring the red line down to where the green one is. Which is why i mentioned that once you do that you might not be able to see the gauges or the dash. ZeosPantera did an awesome job explaining all this, i really recommend reading thru it.

@Spinelli
I think I'm starting to understand where our difference of opinions stems from. If i understood correctly you're saying the center of the screen is where the camera is. I believe the center of the screen is the focal point of the camera. The camera itself is the virtual drivers eyes, or more exactly right between his eyes. This is why i mentioned that a correct FOV setting is most important, that way your eyes match exactly with the camera point. For me thats a FOV of 24, im 28 inches away from the screen. Next is the seat position. For the sake of the argument lets say we have a high poly car model with an exact model of me situated exactly where i would be. Using a 3d modeling software i can go in and get the exact coordinates of my eye point and include that in the cockpit.ini. So now my FOV is perfect and so is my eye point, all mathematically set. Now here's the issue; my eyes are an inch and a half above the center (focal) point of the screen. Using orientation offset or seat pitch i angle the camera (my head) down to where the true center of the screen is. That represents exactly what id be seeing in the real car.
To me thats all spot on, no arguing with those numbers Now the tricky part, when i move my head back level do i still see everything correctly? Im not 100% sure. That is the one bit thats driven me a little crazy. What i do know tho is that the horizon is where it should be. I now drive with my head perfectly level like i do in real life. All the AI cars in front of me are "in front" of me, not below or above me. Look at the picture that @ZeosPantera posted. Imagine how bad your neck would hurt driving for an hour with your head tilted up like that. Perspective is a bit*h but i believe thats a pretty damn close way to set up your view to match the real world.

 

[Spinelli]

The focal point must be exactly between the drivers eye and from there staring out towards the horizon (or whereever the eyeballs should be pointing towards) for a perfect view. Therefore this is the one and only "proper" view as there are no two points and/or directions in space where someone can see the exact same perspective. It's a physical impossibility. In Zeos' picture the focal point of that image is still in the centre of the screen, therefore the rendered image on the screen is an image as if the driver's eyes where exactly whereever the centre of the monitor is.

The centre of the monitor is always where the eyeballs in game, the focal point, are looking from. The image's perspective you are viewing on your monitor will always be from eyeballs in-game that are at that exact point, not lower than your monitor because you decide you want to sit lower in real life.

For example, adjusting the seat pitch to compensate for you sitting higher or lower than the centre of your monitor is not actually compensating for anything, the 2D image on your monitor will just simply be an image from the wrong perspective. Moving your head around in real life doesn't change the fact that that rendered image's perspective is an incorrect one.

 

[Spinelli]

In the case of seat pitch, adjusting the seat pitch away from the "proper view" (whatevsr that exact proper view may be) just simply means that you will then be seeing the world through the eyes of someone who is simply staring too much upwards or downwards. Changing where your physical, real-life head/eyes are doesn't change this fact - what you're viewing on screen will still be an image through the virtual eyes of someone staring too upwards or downwards.

Basically there is only 1 proper view, and that is to have the focal point - which always be the centre of your screen - to be placed exactly between the virtual driver's eyes in all 3 dimensions. Also, the seat pitch must be angled exactly how the driver would have his eyes angled while driving and looking forward, any angle other than that just means the driver is staring too up or down and therefore the image on screen is too up or down. Moving your head higher or lower doesn't do anything to solve that, the image on screen is still the view of a guy staring too upwards or downwards.

 

[Arzack]

What is the right seat pitch value if I have my eyes at top of the monitor height?

 

[ZeosPantera]

What is the right seat pitch value if I have my eyes at top of the monitor height?

It will be slightly different depending on your FOV. But you may want to bump your monitor up instead of trying to make that correct. I mean you are going to end up seeing nothing but road in front of you.

 

[Arzack]

It will be slightly different depending on your FOV. But you may want to bump your monitor up instead of trying to make that correct. I mean you are going to end up seeing nothing but road in front of you.

I drive sitting straight and I don't want to keep eyes/head tilted up.
The horizon should stay at eye level right?

 

[Spinelli]

I drive sitting straight and I don't want to keep eyes/head tilted up.
The horizon should stay at eye level right?

The driver in the game is only looking from one perspective. Changing the perspective from which the driver in the game is looking because you are sitting higher or lower than the centre of your monitor means your view is wrong, simple as that

 

[ZeosPantera]

I drive sitting straight and I don't want to keep eyes/head tilted up.
The horizon should stay at eye level right?

The Green line in that image represents the horizon. And therefore if you had each of those shots in the real world on someones screen you would have to level your real eyes to just above that green line by moving the monitor up and down or your ass. My view (because I sit well below the center line of my monitor) is closest to the far right.

 

[Spinelli]

The Green line in that image represents the horizon. And therefore if you had each of those shots in the real world on someones screen you would have to level your real eyes to just above that green line by moving the monitor up and down or your ass. My view (because I sit well below the center line of my monitor) is closest to the far right.

So if my eyes were level with the top quarter of my monitor then the very first picture in your example would be correct for me? Of course not, look at the view in that first picture, no real life driver has that image in their real-life vision - that's absurd. It has nothing to do with where you sit in real-life. If i sit 2 feet below my monitor does that mean I'm supposed to use some ridiculous seat pitch angle? Of course not. The camera is supposed to be the eye of the driver, what the driver is supposed to see, simple as that.

If i have a camera between my eyes in real life and I take a pic to show everyone the exact view that I was seeing from sitting in the cockpit, then the only way to perfectly replicate that exact view is to have your camera be placed in the exact same spot as mine, and at the exact same pitch. That is the only way for you to see the exact image that I was seeing while I was actually in the real cockpit. It's as simple as that.

Anything other than that exact point and that exact seat pitch will be a different view from what the driver should be seeing, and therefore technically incorrect. It's as simple as that.

Your concept, Zeos, is extremely flawed. This suprises me as you seem pretty "sharp" and knowledgeable when it comes to FOV, but unfortunately couldn't be more wrong when it comes to the view (cam focal point position and pitch angle, AKA seat position and seat pitch).

 

[Slamfunk3]

The driver in the game is only looking from one perspective. Changing the perspective from which the driver in the game is looking because you are sitting higher or lower than the centre of your monitor means your view is wrong, simple as that

The view in the game does only represent one perspective. However in real life there is no such thing as one perspective, as soon as you move your head it changes. Imagine mounting a camera yo your head. Start with your head all the way down and as you move it all the way up to the sky you take a series of photos. They're all gonna have a different perspective. What we're doing is picking out the one pic that matches the physical position of our monitor. If u keep your eyes on the green line (where your eyes are most of the time when driving) the rest of the view is in your peripheral vision. I'll agree with you that its probably not 100% spot on, however it's a whole lot closer then keeping your seat pitch as is when you're not centered with your monitor.
On top of all this I actually think there's more going on then I (we) think. I remember reading somewhere that the rendered image is almost like a sphere not just a flat image. Plus every ISI car ever released and all mod cars I've ever tried have some sort of an offset built into them, there must b a reason for that. I've been lucky enough to actually sit and try to examine the view of a couple of cars available in rf2. And I can tell you that using the seat pitch the view looks closer to what i saw then leaving it at zero. So it does work. Fair enough its probably not as good as with a centered monitor but a lot of us can't or don't want to look right at the center. In my opinion leaving it at 0 just cuz of principal is more ridiculous then trying to optimize it for one self.

 

[Spinelli]

But in real life, when you're in your driving position, there is just that one single perspective. Of course that will change if you decide to tilt your head up to look at the sky or look at a button on your steering wheel or look left or right, or buffetting from wind, or bumps in the road, etc. But we have buttons for look up, down, left, and right (and even head tracking systems), and we have head, environment, and cockpit shake/movement settings for that kind of stuff as well. That stuff has nothing to do with your regular viewpoint which is the standard perspective of the driver looking forward while driving straight.

When you look at the monitor, that image is supposed to be exactly what you would see if you, yourself, were sitting in that very car driving straight (not while looking at a bird in the sky or a button on your wheel or an opponent on your right). And there is only one perspective for that.

It's like saying, "I make my in-game view actually stare towards the left because I physically sit on the right side of my monitor rather than in the centre". Well sure, you can sit wherever you want in real-life, but now when you look at the monitor, the game, you are looking through the eyes of a driver that is constantly staring to the left rather than straight ahead, lol! Obviously no driver in the world has his eyes constantly pointed and staring towards the left when driving.

This logic is extremely flawed and just plain wrong, whether you apply it to left/right or up/down.

Plus every ISI car ever released and all mod cars I've ever tried have some sort of an offset built into them, there must b a reason for that. I've been lucky enough to actually sit and try to examine the view of a couple of cars available in rf2. And I can tell you that using the seat pitch the view looks closer to what i saw then leaving it at zero.

This is part of the misunderstanding. I am not saying that the default seat pitch is perfect. Sometimes I find them too downwards looking (regardless of how high or low I am sitting relative to the monitor, that's completely irrelevent) and i therefore need to sometimes level the seat pitch and rotate it just the smallest amount upwards in order for the focal point, the driver's eyes, to be staring more straight-out rather than staring downwards as much. Then once I rotate the seat pitch up slightly, I then need to often lower the seat itself slightly or else I can tell the perspective is from a point slightly too high up. (It looks like the default perspective is sometimes from a position too high up and then slightly pitched too downwards, the default GT Legends cars were the absolute worst with their default views - way too high up and then to compensate, staring way too down, it was laughable)

So I'm not saying the stock values are always perfect, all I'm saying is there is only 1 correct value, that is what the driver in the car would see. We are simulating the exact view and perspective the driver would see, as if we were that driver, as if we were staring through that driver's eyes. From then on, where you happen to want to sit in real life is completely irrelevant.

 

[Lazza]

When you look at the monitor, that image is supposed to be exactly what you would see if you, yourself, were sitting in that very car driving straight (not while looking at a bird in the sky or a button on your wheel or an opponent on your right). And there is only one perspective for that.

If the monitor is showing the horizon at dead centre, but the centre of your screen is above or below your eye height, there are two 'errors':

1. The horizon, and everything else drawn, appears higher or lower than it should.
2. The perspective will be skewed, because if the screen is vertical it will no longer be perpendicular to your view; or, if it is pointing directly at your eyes, you're now representing the virtual screen angle (probably vertical if the horizon is at dead centre) on your angled screen.

So, if the screen is at a height where the in-game horizon doesn't sit level with your eyes, altering the in-game pitch can adjust it so that it is. Then things all work again. Of course these 'errors' are quite small in most cases so it might not really be a big issue.

Finally, there are two sets of eyes and screens; your eyes and screen mirror a set of virtual eyes and virtual screen. So just like real life, the virtual eyes are a distance from the virtual screen. Changing pitch doesn't move the virtual eyes, it moves the virtual screen. Just like the FOV discussion, imagine your real car is all boarded up except for a screen-size hole you can see out of. If you are actually below the height of that hole and look through it, all you can see is sky. If you sit below your screen and make your in-game view correct, all you'll see is sky (that's how you know it's correct... real life matches the game). So obviously you don't sit above, below, or (as you point out) to the left or right of your screen if you're going to make the view correct (that doesn't make the concept wrong)

 

[Slamfunk3]

Finally, there are two sets of eyes and screens; your eyes and screen mirror a set of virtual eyes and virtual screen. So just like real life, the virtual eyes are a distance from the virtual screen. Changing pitch doesn't move the virtual eyes, it moves the virtual screen.

Cheers for this Lazza, this seems to be my missing piece of info (the last sentence). Spinelli almost had me questioning myself I was convinced tho that the offset was working correctly because with my screen lower then my eyes I know I'm still seeing exactly what i should be. Also I specifically remember when "seat pitch" was added by ISI it was based on a request by some guys here so it can deal with monitor position.

 

[Spinelli]

If the monitor is showing the horizon at dead centre, but the centre of your screen is above or below your eye height, there are two 'errors':

1. The horizon, and everything else drawn, appears higher or lower than it should.
2. The perspective will be skewed, because if the screen is vertical it will no longer be perpendicular to your view; or, if it is pointing directly at your eyes, you're now representing the virtual screen angle (probably vertical if the horizon is at dead centre) on your angled screen.

So, if the screen is at a height where the in-game horizon doesn't sit level with your eyes, altering the in-game pitch can adjust it so that it is. Then things all work again. Of course these 'errors' are quite small in most cases so it might not really be a big issue.

Finally, there are two sets of eyes and screens; your eyes and screen mirror a set of virtual eyes and virtual screen. So just like real life, the virtual eyes are a distance from the virtual screen. Changing pitch doesn't move the virtual eyes, it moves the virtual screen. Just like the FOV discussion, imagine your real car is all boarded up except for a screen-size hole you can see out of. If you are actually below the height of that hole and look through it, all you can see is sky. If you sit below your screen and make your in-game view correct, all you'll see is sky (that's how you know it's correct... real life matches the game). So obviously you don't sit above, below, or (as you point out) to the left or right of your screen if you're going to make the view correct (that doesn't make the concept wrong)

And that's all fine but we are replicating the view that it's like sitting in a racing car while looking straight-out in front. A driver in that car only has one view (except when moving his head to check dials or whatever, but we are talking about the standard view here). If that virtual driver all of a sudden magically jumped out of the game into real-life and saw the screen he would say something like "what is wrong with your view, that is not the view that I see when I sit in the car, you are staring too high/low and your eyes/seat are set at a point too high or low. What you are looking at on your screen is not how I see it when I sit in the car."

There is only one proper view, that is the view that replicates and shows the player exactly the view that the driver in the car would see, it's as simple as that.

Maybe the following will make things easier to understand: It's like if I wore a super small go-pro camera and stuck it perfectly between my eyes to show everyone the view I see when I'm in an F2000 car, then that EXACT view is what you must replicate on your monitor if you want to replicate what you would see if you, yourself, were to ever sit in an F2000.

Cheers for this Lazza, this seems to be my missing piece of info (the last sentence). Spinelli almost had me questioning myself I was convinced tho that the offset was working correctly because with my screen lower then my eyes I know I'm still seeing exactly what i should be. Also I specifically remember when "seat pitch" was added by ISI it was based on a request by some guys here so it can deal with monitor position.

Slamfunk, I repeat as i've already previously said, I don't neccessarily agree that the default ISI seat pitch is perfect for every car and it's therefore good they put the seat pitch option in the player file instead of having to adjust it individually for each car type. Not only that, but I was one of the most vocal people here on the forums with regards to seat pitch/orientation offset. Way too many of the default views - even worse in games like Race 07, GT Legends, etc. - were too high-up and then angled/pitched staring too low towards the ground (regardless of where you sit in real-life) when in fact the view angle/pitch should be straightened-out to be looking straighter-out and the view position/seat should then be lowered. The stock view in those games are of the perspective of an 8ft tall guy who is staring at the ground 15 feet in front of him, lol - ridiculous (and again, that has nothing to do with where you sit in real-life). So basically, I was one of the biggest supporters of editing the default seat pitch/orientation offset.

There is only 1 proper view and if you want to adjust your in-game view to compensate for wherever you sit in real-life that's fine it's obiously your freedom, but there is only 1 view to simulate what it looks like to be a driver behind the wheel of the car, and that is the view where the camera/focal-point/eyes etc. is placed exactly between the eyes of wherever the eyes of the in-game driver should be, and at the pitch/angle of which that driver would be looking. The driver in-game doesn't care where you are sitting in real life, that has nothing to do with anything.

However, if you are sitting, for eg. 4 inches lower than the centre of your monitor - and for some reason you want to base the image of your screen on where you sit in real-life rather than the view that a driver would see while sitting in the car you've chosen (which makes no sense and is technically incorrect, but it seems you want to do it this way for whatever reason) - then simply lower your view another 4 inches from exactly between the driver's eyes so that your view is now 4 inches lower as if you are staring out of the drivers neck or chest instead of his eyes. Even then, though, the eyepoint is still the centre of the monitor - the perspective of the image of your monitor is coming from the centre of your monitor which would be the focal point.

 

[ZeosPantera]

So if my eyes were level with the top quarter of my monitor then the very first picture in your example would be correct for me?

Yes.

If i sit 2 feet below my monitor does that mean I'm supposed to use some ridiculous seat pitch angle? The camera is supposed to be the eye of the driver, what the driver is supposed to see, simple as that.

The camera in game is the eye of the driver. AND the camera should be looking out at the horizon. And that would be perfectly fine if everyone sat at or slightly above their monitors center line (3rd box). I presume most people do sit like this but not all. I sit at the 1/3rd point from the bottom of my monitor. So if in real life I looked out onto the horizon strait and level in front of me through a 22.5" window that was cut precisely the size and aspect of my monitor I am going to get a load of sky and just a bit of road (Box 4). But the road I see in front of me stretches out towards the horizon and that is where I am looking.

It is all about looking forward, perfectly forward and level and not up or down IN REAL LIFE. If you put the monitor on the ceiling I would insist you adjust the pitch to see nothing but sky. If you put it on the floor you should see nothing but asphalt. So you have to raise the hardware up until you can see out on the horizon, matching real life. That is what the camera's pitch has to match, Where your monitor is in relation to you. Since your monitor doesn't line up 100% with Box3 you have to tweak pitch according to how messed up your screen is placed. Shifting the horizon up or down.

If i have a camera between my eyes in real life and I take a pic to show everyone the exact view that I was seeing from sitting in the cockpit, then the only way to perfectly replicate that exact view is to have your camera be placed in the exact same spot as mine, and at the exact same pitch. That is the only way for you to see the exact image that I was seeing while I was actually in the real cockpit. It's as simple as that.

Yes. I agree.

Your concept, Zeos, is extremely flawed. This surprises me as you seem pretty "sharp" and knowledgeable when it comes to FOV, but unfortunately couldn't be more wrong when it comes to the view (cam focal point position and pitch angle, AKA seat position and seat pitch).

Don't make me photoshop all this. I'll do it man. I'M CRAZY!

 

[Spinelli]

Yes.

No, because now what you see on your screen is not the image that the real-life driver has. You are playing the game from a viewing perspective of which is not what a driver in that car would see.

The camera in game is the eye of the driver. AND the camera should be looking out at the horizon. And that would be perfectly fine if everyone sat at or slightly above their monitors center line (3rd box). I presume most people do sit like this but not all. I sit at the 1/3rd point from the bottom of my monitor. So if in real life I looked out onto the horizon strait and level in front of me through a 22.5" window that was cut precisely the size and aspect of my monitor I am going to get a load of sky and just a bit of road (Box 4). But the road I see in front of me stretches out towards the horizon and that is where I am looking.

It is all about looking forward, perfectly forward and level and not up or down IN REAL LIFE. If you put the monitor on the ceiling I would insist you adjust the pitch to see nothing but sky. If you put it on the floor you should see nothing but asphalt. So you have to raise the hardware up until you can see out on the horizon, matching real life. That is what the camera's pitch has to match, Where your monitor is in relation to you. Since your monitor doesn't line up 100% with Box3 you have to tweak pitch according to how messed up your screen is placed. Shifting the horizon up or down.

You are adjusting the in-game view based on your seat in real-life. That is completely backwards. When a real-life driver jumps in his car he has that one view. What you are doing, Zeos (and advising others), is NOT replicating the view of what it's like to sit in a racecar, but replicating the view based on whereever you feel like sitting in real-life.

There is only one proper view, and that is the exact coordinates and pitch that the in-game driver's eyes are supposed to be at. And when you place the in-game cam at that exact point and pitch, then the exact spot where it originates from is the center of the monitor. After that, the only error would be if you, yourself, don't happen to line your eyes up perfectly with the centre of the monitor. Anything other than that exact point and pitch will simply be showing an image on your screen which is NOT the same image that the driver in the actual car will be seeing. You are therefore playing the game looking at a wrong view, and playing the game not through the eyes of the actual driver sitting in that very car. There is no way around that.

 

[Lazza]

If you want to see the horizon in the centre and with correct perspective (let's assume FOV is correct) then you need to be positioned level with the centre of the screen with it directly facing you. You seem to be saying that as well, and I'm not disagreeing.

My point is if you're not in that physical position, you can use the pitch to get your view matching what you would see if you were looking through that hole that's in the same position as your screen. Of course it's not what a real driver will see - he's not looking through a hole. I don't think you guys are actually disagreeing on concept, you just want to see exactly what you would see in that situation in real life while Zeos is altering what he can see to match his physical setup.

As I said earlier, if you leave the screen showing the 'correct' view but then don't have it central it will mess with perception and/or perspective. And I still don't think you're disagreeing with that, you just don't consider that an option. That's where it's the player's choice.

 

[Spinelli]

If you want to see the horizon in the centre and with correct perspective (let's assume FOV is correct) then you need to be positioned level with the centre of the screen with it directly facing you. You seem to be saying that as well, and I'm not disagreeing.

My point is if you're not in that physical position, you can use the pitch to get your view matching what you would see if you were looking through that hole that's in the same position as your screen. Of course it's not what a real driver will see - he's not looking through a hole. I don't think you guys are actually disagreeing on concept, you just want to see exactly what you would see in that situation in real life while Zeos is altering what he can see to match his physical setup.

As I said earlier, if you leave the screen showing the 'correct' view but then don't have it central it will mess with perception and/or perspective. And I still don't think you're disagreeing with that, you just don't consider that an option. That's where it's the player's choice.

I think you nailed it perfectly

Two different methods, but with the other method you are still staring at an image on your monitor that is not the image, the view, that a real driver would see if actually sitting in the car, and that's all that really matters in the end because we are simulating one thing only - being the driver in the car (and therefore we are technically supposed to be seeing exactly what he sees). Period.

 

[Lazza]

Yes, but then you are still staring at an image on your monitor that is not the image, the view, that a real driver would see if actually sitting in the car, and that's all that really matters in the end

So for you the only option is to move the screen so it matches what the game is doing. That doesn't make what Zeos is doing incorrect, because he's arriving at an image with correct perspective - it's just not quite showing the same thing you'd see in real life.

 

[TechAde]

If you want to see the horizon in the centre and with correct perspective (let's assume FOV is correct) then you need to be positioned level with the centre of the screen with it directly facing you. You seem to be saying that as well, and I'm not disagree.

My point is if you're not in that physical position, you can use the pitch to get your view matching what you would see if you were looking through that hole that's in the same position as your screen.

If I may throw my 2p into the discussion...

Spinelli is correct.

Rotating the view i.e. altering seat pitch is not how you should offset the view for an eye point that is above or below the centre of the screen.

If the eye point is off-centre then the entire rendered image should be shifted/moved to match the eye point, not rotated.

The difference is subtle when talking about small movements, however the difference is there. This becomes most obvious on professional multi-channel simulators. Professional drivers will notice errors in both pitch and position as they make it "feel" wrong.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Spinelli]

If I may throw my 2p into the discussion...

Spinelli is correct.

Rotating the view i.e. altering seat pitch is not how you should offset the view for an eye point that is above or below the centre of the screen.

If the eye point is off-centre then the entire rendered image should be shifted/moved to match the eye point, not rotated.

The difference is subtle when talking about small movements, however the difference is there. This becomes most obvious on professional multi-channel simulators. Professional drivers will notice errors in both pitch and position as they make it "feel" wrong.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Thank you for chimming in

I'd like to add that even when shifting/moving the view instead of the pitch, that the rendered image will then be of a driver that is extra tall or extra short (or you can think of it as the driver having too much padding under his butt, or his butt is sinking through the seat, lol).

 

[TechAde]

I forgot to add... in rF2 I don't think a view shift is possible.

Moving the seat up/down moves the in-sim eye point but not the horizon.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Lazza]

Spinelli is correct.

Rotating the view i.e. altering seat pitch is not how you should offset the view for an eye point that is above or below the centre of the screen.

If the eye point is off-centre then the entire rendered image should be shifted/moved to match the eye point, not rotated.

This is where we end up talking about 3 different things and work out we're not actually arguing with each other. Or something.

I didn't think Zeos was talking about being away from screen centre in a directional sense (that is, the screen not being perpendicular to your eyes), just being physically above or below the center of the screen. I don't think I can see where he's said otherwise, but I'm open to finding out I missed it.

When I talk about adjusting the pitch to match the real life situation, I'm assuming the screen is tilted so that it faces your eyes. So the horizon is above or below the centre of the screen but everything lines up properly.

Sitting, as an example, with your eyes below the centre of a vertical screen will introduce the same small perspective errors I eluded to earlier when talking about a centre-horizon image that isn't facing you. This error is a large part of why correct FOV is the only correct FOV, because your position in relation to what's drawn on the screen alters the apparent perspective.

I don't know if my assumption has changed the meaning of everything Spinelli was saying, but I don't think everything he was saying was correct, no (but again, it might just be a difference of opinion on what should be aimed for, rather than a disagreement on concept). Matching the FOV and pitch to your real life situation will produce correct perspective, even if it means what you can actually see doesn't match what you'd see in real life (which is true of FOV anyway, unless you have big enough screens to fill your peripheral vision) - assuming the screen is perpendicular to your eyes. Wherever it is.

 

[Spinelli]

The actual driver sitting in the car only sees things from one exact perspective (unless he moves his head, obviously). So adjusting your view - whether it be pitch or height (position) - from that perfect spot/pitch (exactly between the driver's eyes, and looking straight-out) means that when you stare at your monitor and race, you are then seeing a different image/perspective of what you would be seeing if you were in that car racing.

We are the real-life extension of the in-game driver (obviously, we're simulating being the in-game driver driving the car). Making the view stare more at the sky or at the ground (regardless of how little or large) - relative to the "proper" postion/pitch - is changing the image rendered on the screen to an image which is coming from a driver who is staring at the sky or at the ground. Moving your real-life eyes/head in different positions relative to the monitor makes no difference, when you start playing and look at your monitor you are still looking through the eyes of a driver who is staring more at the ground, or more at the sky.

I undersatand what you are saying Lazza - what Zeos is suggesting is that the monitor be rendering the world relative to you in real-life. Sure, if you have more than one monitor than go ahead and, for eg,, stick a monitor 10 feet above your head and have that monitor only render a sky, or have a monitor laying on your floor and rendering the floor of your car. But you still need that main centre monitor, which you look at, to be at the exact position and pitch of the in-game driver, because that is the eyes of the driver which we are simulating to look out from. Simple as that.

even if it means what you can actually see doesn't match what you'd see in real life

Then it's wrong. We are simulating being in a cockpit driving a racing car. If what you see is of a different perspective (position or pitch) from actually being in the car, then it's simply wrong. You would then not be viewing what you should be viewing if you were to actually hop in the car yourself, and that's the bottom line.

 

[Slamfunk3]

Well so I'm now officially lost ha. Let me see if i can simplify this a little by using a crappy little pic.
View attachment 14376
So the red line in the middle is obviously eye lever. The 2 other lines drawn from the eye are the human eye FOV. The blue box is our perfectly in the middle monitor. The green one would be a monitor thats a couple of inches lower. Now to me both of those monitor positions should show the right perspective as your still looking straight at the horizon. Now the question is is that type of an offset possible in RF2? Is it possible at all?

 

[TechAde]

Perfectly summarised.

I don't think such an offset is possible in rF2, would be happy to be proved wrong though.

Your image shows perfectly why altering pitch doesn't really have the desired effect, too.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Spinelli]

View attachment 14378

If you lower your in-game view to where the green monitor is instead of the blue, well then draw a straight horizontal line back to the driver from the green monitor now, you will see that the line will go through the driver's mouth or neck, so basically the renderd image on that green monitors view is now that of a camera placed at the driver's mouth or neck rather than his eyes.

And it's the exact same concept if you leave the correct eye-point/seat-position but just adjust the angle/pitch. What you see on your screen will then be the image of a driver who is staring too much towards the ground or sky.

This is why there is only one technically correct image that should be viewed on your monitor, and that is the exact image with the horizontal red line and the blue monitor - as that exact view setup will be replicating exactly the image that that very driver would be seeing and therefore is the only correct view to replicate us sitting in the car. If we want to sit un-centered with our monitor then that is our decision and freedom, but adjusting the in-game view away from thst exact image you drew - the horizontal red-line and the blue monitor - whether with regards to pitch or position, will be changing our view relative to what the view would be when sitting in the car.

Now to me both of those monitor positions should show the right perspective as your still looking straight at the horizon. Now the question is is that type of an offset possible in RF2? Is it possible at all?

Nope because there are no two points in physical space which would show the exact same view/perspective. As I explained above, look at the centre of the green monitor, that monitor will now be displaying an image that is being created from a point lower than the driver's eyes.

Or you may do it with pitch instead of position/height, and in that case the image on your screen will be that of a driver who is staring slightly upwards or downwards rather than perfectly straight-out like the horizontal red line in your pic.

It can be pretty summed up in on paragraph...

Having the rendered image on our screen replicate the "seat position" (perfect eye level) and "seat pitch" (straight-out) of the red line in your pic, is the only "correct" view to simulate uthe view of us driving the car. If you adjust the in-game's seat up or down relative to the perfect position of the eye, then the point of your pic's red line will not be at the eyeball anymore. Same with pitch...If you adjust the in-game's pitch up or down, then the angle of your pic's red line will not be looking straight out anymore. So either way, or both ways, your pic's red line would become altered. If you want to replicate your vision of sitting in the car (which is what we're doing since the game is from the perspective of a race car driver's eyes, obviously) then that is the only way to have a perfect driver's vision/point-of-view/image rendered on your monitor.

 

[Slamfunk3]

Spinelli, I think your still missing my point that the human eye has a wider FOV then what your monitor can cover. The in game camera also has a wider FOV then what is shown on your monitor. So the issue is can RF2 offset the display position, not the view or perspective. TechAde says he doesn't think it can, I have no reason to disagree with him. Buuuuut......

View attachment 14379

That's a little comparison from RF1 using the offset. Left side is at 0. Right side is off by about 2 inches, like -0.050 in the CAM file. Both with seat position at 0,0. I had to lower the file size to be able to upload it here so sorry for the low quality. Maybe not perfect but pretty damn close.

 

[Spinelli]

The above two images show two completely different perspectives. It makes no difference where you sit in real life and if your eyes are perfectly lined up with each of the pics' horizons; what you see in the right image regardless of where you sit in real life is still an image of a driver who is staring towards the ground. So even if you, yourself, look straight on at the monitor at perfect real-life eye to in-game horizon level, that rendered image is still the image of a driver, or a camera, that is staring/pointed towards the ground. You can't see that? The image you are looking at is from a camera/driver's eyes that is pointed towards the ground rather than straight-out, changing your real-life position does not change that and therefore it is not what a driver sees, regardless where you sit in real life.

I don't understand what you mean by display offset instead of perspective offset. Think of yourself holding a camera. The only way to show someone else the perfect perspective of what you see, is to place that camera pointing straight-out and dead centre between your eyes. Well think of the exact same concept in-game. Setting the camera to be positioned dead-centre between the virtual driver's eyes and pointed straight-out is the only way to show someone the exact perspective of what that driver sees.

 

[Lazza]

A real driver also sees nearly 90 degrees to the left and right with peripheral vision, as well as some of the ceiling and his legs/body. The screen doesn't show all that, but the perspective might be correct.

If two views from the same correct (eye) position are pointing in slightly different directions, but both allow you to see what you're actually looking at (the road), some people consider them both good enough. You don't, obviously.

 

[Spinelli]

????? If you want to make the size of objects in game closer to, or the same size as real-life objects then you can adjust the FOV, and there is even a FOV calculator - that Zeos so so graciously helped develop - to help us out with that. The view will of course get cut off once you run out of screen real estate, but the game's view, and therefore what you do see on your monitor/monitors will still technically be correct. Plus, even if you don't use the 1:1 FOV (I use 25 instead of the perfect 17.5 for my setup) you still want to have the camera point where the in-game driver's eyes are, and obviously angled/staring-out in the same direction as well. FOV, amount of monitors, monitor size, etc. has nothing to do with the proper eye point and pitch, there is only one proper spot for that, again, dead-centre between the in-game driver's eyes and pointing/staring straight-out.

Yes, it may be "good enough", anything can be "good enough" for people, it's a game and we all have the freedom and choice to use whatever view we want, but we were discussing the "correct" view to replicate us, ourselves, sitting in that cockpit. You can use whatever you want, of course

 

[ZeosPantera]

OK here is a quick mockup of what I am on about.

Things are exaggerated to better show my logic. Take a look at the incorrect (white) monitor in my drawing. Assuming that was really up there and you did the math calculating based on a perpendicular line from the human's eye to monitor center to plum with the earth and got around... 20° (.35radians) of correction needed. Now with the seat pitch value (keeping in mind that seat pitch really just means "In Game Camera Pitch") you would end up correcting it to a very high value and a monitor showing you nothing but sky (or the roof of the car)..

and that is correct.

Now lets shrink the values and adjustments needed to where people actually keep their monitors and you end up with 1-3° of angle needed to be "Pitched Out" with the seat pitch value.

 

[Lazza]

FOV, amount of monitors, monitor size, etc. has nothing to do with the proper eye point and pitch, there is only one proper spot for that, again, dead-centre between the in-game driver's eyes and pointing/staring straight-out.

One thing I want to clear up here, just in case this is an issue of disagreement: if you have the screen set up, with correct FOV, in the manner Zeos is describing and illustrating, in such a position that you can see the entire windscreen (and therefore see as much of the road as possible), then whether the screen is perfectly level with your eyes or slightly above or below it will make zero difference to the view you see through that virtual windscreen.

That is, if the windscreen appears in the centre, bottom, or top of the screen, if you set it up correctly the view will be identical. The actual angle the camera is pointing has no bearing on perspective etc, again assuming consistent or correct FOV, perpendicular screen, etc. So in terms of seeing the road properly there isn't only one correct angle.

 

[Spinelli]

Ok this is too much, lol just set it how you want it i'm tired of typing on this stupid tablet, takes forever and i feel like i'm repesting myself over.

Seat pitch/angle aside, can we at least agree on the following:

Regardless of what you want to do with your seat pitch, regardless of how pointed up, down or straight-ahead you want to set it...the seat height / eye/cam position should (for the technically "proper" view we are discussing) always be placed at exactly dead-centre - vertically and horizontally - between the eyes of whereever the in-game driver's eyes are supposed to be for that particular car being driven. - Well unless you want to simulate a driver with a much taller upper body (butt to head) than usual (rare), then of course you would have to raise it up slightly (maybe a couple in-game inches?) to simulate his slightly higher eyepoint. - Can we at least agree on that?

(If we can't agree that the view should always be created from dead-centre between the in-game drivers eyes - regardless of pitch - then i'm really going to fall off my chair).

 

[Lazza]

The screen is drawn to the centre, that's why you have to have the screen directly facing you for the perspective to be correct. No argument here.

 

[MerlinC]

...
Set it to 1 to enable. If you would like to change the FOV the mirrors use please follow the instructions on this post http://www.racesimcentral.com/forum...ur-Driving-view.&p=53364&viewfull=1#post53364
...

Great Tutorial. Unfortunately the link to set up the FOV for the mirrors is no longer working. Do you have another source on this information?

 

[ZeosPantera]

If we can't agree that the view should always be created from dead-centre between the in-game drivers eyes - regardless of pitch - then i'm really going to fall off my chair.

I agree. I tried to describe that but the only way to illustrate it would be in some sort of 3d Hyper-glyph projection and I don't have the time for that. The issue is making 0,0 in all cars BE the correct spot for the drivers eyes.

So finding this

is the job of moving the seat.

Great Tutorial. Unfortunately the link to set up the FOV for the mirrors is no longer working. Do you have another source on this information?

Damn. uh.... You want this for rF1? because it is different from rf2 which I can't really nail.

 

[Spinelli]

ZeosPantera, you're one of the most knowledgable guys around when it comes to FOV and stuff like that. I was always under the impression that - although RF2, RF1, SCE, etc. don't have all the in-game triple screen customizability options as AC, IR, and (I think) LFS - you could setill get a perfect 1:1 FOV match with real-life.

Sure, you need to do the bezel compensation in your GPU control panel rather than in-game, but in the end it still get's done.

Sure, you need to angle your monitors accordingly, but once done, the in-game world will look perfect from your perspective (no distortion) (well within reason since most people will probably angle their monitors by eye by lining things up in the game until they look straight rather than actually measuring their monitors' exact angles).

So to summarize, we can still have a perfect image because the bezel compensation is still done (albeit by the GPU control panel rather than the game), and the image still looks perfectly straight/non-distorted (lining up monitor angles by eye or measurement). Therefore, although we have less flexible in-game triple-screen "tuning" options, we can still technically get a just as perfect image/view in rFactor...


Or so that's what I thought...


WhiteShadow is saying that it's impossible for anyone to use a 1:1 FOV in rFactor (RF2, RF1, SCE, etc.). Something to do with the fact that the game itself doesn't do any bezel compensation (even though it's being done by the GPU control panel instead). He says that - because of this - you will always be off from a 1:1 FOV by around 4-5 %...


I really want to get the best, most realistic, 1:1 view/FOV with my triple 27s as I can and have always went by PixSim's triple screen calculator (along with GPU bezel compensation, obviously,).


Can you please share your thoughts with us??...



The following post #s are the discussion between me and WhiteShadow:
- 437
- 443-445
- 448
- 464
- 466
- 482
- 483

Thread --> https://community.racesimcentral.net/showthread.php/24623-So-who-has-PCars/page22


Your input would greatly appreciated