So....who has PCars?

don't think I'll buy,
a demo might be nice to try though, enjoying f1's in Iracing to much to move my sim time to something else


p.s I think a lot of people are running the graphic settings to high in Pcars which is increasing lag/latency
thus spoiling the experience & what it has to offer
 
Not sure if it is necessary to suggest lying or laziness on FFB settings. I for one and trying to get this game to work and have no advantage to gain from paying full price for something and binning it too quickly. I do hope you are right but even then I would be annoyed at the developers for not providing proper guidance. I want the developer to give ma a car with the right feel not a car plus 37 different settings with no instructions, I mean how many permutations is that? And I have to work it all out car by car? I'm hoping that someone who has the time will start to post individual set ups by wheel, in time.

Interestingly back in the days of GP Legends I used to drive with an analogue joystick and the physics were totally fabulous. My brain soon dealt with the joystick interface and I became very skilled at feeding on power with the long throw of the stick whilst unwinding the "wheel". After a while this all happened automatically. I have a suspicion that the physics with PCars are not there yet, but I hope they will be.

No I get what you mean. Again it didn't mean it as an attack or an accusation.
I am simply surprised that so many people go out of their way to accuse pCARS of being arcade when it's simply no true.
I think the tire model feels great and very communicative.

The need to set up ffb per car seems a bit daunting, but to me it seems that the same-ish base values works quite well for most cars.
Tire forces at 115-120, ffb at 100, master scale of around 26-30, Fx at 48-50, Fy a bit higher, Fz at about 54-60 and the Mz at anywhere between 100-200, depending on the car.
Smoothing at 0 obviously.
 
I think some people need to go and install Shift 2


Then tell me pCars is arcade ......heavens lol ....it is so funny p
 
Hex you are more on your FFB than on what is really going on with the car!
Try to drive without FFB at all!
You will see that (many, most?) cars don´t react in alogical manner and that grip and controller-input is dumbed down
and that it has in no way the fidelity that rF2 has.
Otherwise I must say that there must be something wrong with your senses.....

I mean: look alone at the Clios.......................................they are lightyears, galaxys and worlds apart.
 
same with AC, some think it's the best thing ever, others totally naff

I wonder how much is down to how software works within our (different ) hardware setups or just opinion

I suspect a mixture of both

peterchen -try Pcars again but with resolution down a few notches+reduce all graphic settings ...any better?
 
So you should be able to do a great time easily in pCars in full pro if you understand different physics so well and this is console/arcade ? ...it should be simple. ?

Show me the Money then !
I don't know what you are trying to do here but i saw just one person calling people a non true simracer when they wouldn't use pCars first before anything else. I than just said, that i could twist it around and call people the opposite, an arcade racer. I didn't said it is, i just give an example how the pov and intrest of people can differ, nothing more nothing less.

Now you are the next on the mission to pull us in the dirt while twisting the words in my mouth or what ?

Cmon man don't do this. You would be the next i couldn't take serious anymore as i don't do some presented individuals in this thread, and till know you wasn't one of those.

And yes i can be brutally fast if i would like or was intrested in any competition, but i'm not and as i said you can get used to everything no matter the QA.

And what is that for a silly question "show me the money".

Is this a kindergarten or what ?

Please stop trowing dirt on me without any serious reason, because i have the balls to talk face to face to anybody without the need of trowing dirt on devs at the wrong place.

Show me where i diss any of them public as some do. Till now i was direct and honest, no need to pull me down in the puddle. ;)

There are others as you to, calling and mentioning AC as for example every now and than,while dissing it.

Did I do ? No, you guys are the fakes not me. ;)

Good n8 !
 
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Hex you are more on your FFB than on what is really going on with the car!
Try to drive without FFB at all!
You will see that (many, most?) cars don´t react in alogical manner and that grip and controller-input is dumbed down
and that it has in no way the fidelity that rF2 has.
Otherwise I must say that there must be something wrong with your senses.....

I mean: look alone at the Clios.......................................they are lightyears, galaxys and worlds apart.

Funny years ago I suggested people do that in rF2 and AC ( turn off FF ) .......to see just how much you can feel the tyres and chassis.
Not a single person commented. :p

I see all this as besides the point anyways , again, I say no one here said pCars has better fizzix p or FF then rF2.

Not to mention Hex, myself and others already made it patently obvious in no uncertain terms that we did not equate rF2 and pCars in those regards.

You sort of debate yourself. ;)
 
I don't know what you are trying to do here but i saw just one person calling people a non true simracer when they wouldn't use pCars first before anything else. I than just said, that i could twist it around and call people the opposite, an arcade racer. I didn't said it is, i just give an example how the pov and intrest of people can differ, nothing more nothing less.

Now you are the next on the mission to pull us in the dirt while twisting the words in my mouth or what ?

Cmon man don't do this. You would be the next i couldn't take serious anymore as i don't do some presented individuals in this thread, and till know you wasn't one of those.

And yes i can be brutally fast if i would like or was intrested in any competition, but i'm not and as i said you can get used to everything no matter the QA.

And what is that for a silly question "show me the money".

Is this a kindergarten or what ?

Please stop trowing dirt on me without any serious reason, because i have the balls to talk face to face to anybody without the need of trowing dirt on devs at the wrong place.

Show me where i diss any of them public as some do. Till now i was direct and honest, no need to pull me down in the puddle. ;)

There are others as you to, calling and mentioning AC as for example every now and than,while dissing it.

Did I do ? No, you guys are the fakes not me. ;)

Good n8 !

lool

I only funning man. hehehe

I not dissing anything, I said AC is the " purists/ trackday sim " that's not a bad rap. ? lol

edit: A group already has a $60 Australian / 16 car pack out. That is purist. ;)
 
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Don't do this man, i'm really the wrong person for word play. It just would catapult me in trouble.

And i'm a bad rapper. :)
 
Hex you are more on your FFB than on what is really going on with the car!
Try to drive without FFB at all!
You will see that (many, most?) cars don´t react in alogical manner and that grip and controller-input is dumbed down
and that it has in no way the fidelity that rF2 has.
Otherwise I must say that there must be something wrong with your senses.....

I mean: look alone at the Clios.......................................they are lightyears, galaxys and worlds apart.

i gotta say, this spurred me to do a head to head -- theyre really not, imo.

i did 2 5 lap races against 13 AI, 60% pCARS (yeah..im slow), 90% rf2 (i usually do 95 but the opposite of what i expected happened), 15 min warmup in both. started w/ pCARS; warmup wasnt promising, i got out of the garage late & never saw any other cars, my pace was 2-3 seconds off the AI. im not good w/ silverstone or FWD, so i knew this wouldnt be great, but i did think the clio was simple enough & 60% was low enough id be on pace w/ them. the race was actually great -- stayed w/ the pack the 1st lap so i improved my lines, was almost always racing someone, even almost somehow came from way back to take 4th in the last stretch (thinking it was the "that one corner" syndrome empty box was talking about, tho tbh i hadnt noticed it to that point). 5th place, nice race, on to rf2. had my fun, now the real deal.

the car was about the same, more understeer tho (i used default setups both, tho i ended up messing w/ the rf2 one), although the car is so slow (at least w/ me driving it) that the points where this is a problem can pretty much be compensated for by spinning the wheel like im driving a bus. i finish warmup w/ a time almost identical to my race pace in pCARS (..im not gonna say). it turns out im 2-3 seconds ahead of the AI out of warmup now; i had thought that there would be a curve going from pC to rf2 but instead (duh) after just driving the same track & car, my experience had carried directly over.

i realized id messed up the AI so i messed around w/ the setup, tried to dial out the understeer a bit, i removed the front ARB bc it seemed like itd do that, added camber, & that was it bc i frankly dont know what else to do. was placed 3rd on the grid & got off to (i guess) a really good start, was in first place very quickly, & it was clear i wasnt going to lose it. from there i realized i had basically 2 options, a)toying with the AI to see if i could get some fun from my mess-up or b)seeing how well i could manage my tires for the 5 laps. after a minute or so of a) i chose option c, ending the race.

as for the physics in each, i stay away from that for many reasons, & just evaluate grip bc its not really subjective & a caveman could do it. pCARS surprised me by being slipperier as i didnt have any heavy rubber presets for silverstone. just what is listed as medium, tho it didnt even look like that to me. i know pC has pretty low grip relative to other sims, but figured rf2 on a track that wasnt rubbered down would be the slicker of the two.

the big difference -- i think, cant confirm -- will come as no surprise, tire wear. in warmups in rf2 i had pretty well chewed thru my fronts. i didnt have the telemtry app on for pCARS, but i was comfortable the entire race, despite abusing the tires a bit more. supposedly theres some issue w/ tire wear in all non formula A cars in pC right now, but i dont know the details except that theyre reported to wear far less than they should.

i was pretty surprised, & this is actually the second time this has happened w/ me. after really enjoying the caterham in pCARS, i immediately thought of the panoz, & thought -- as fun as this is, im gonna boot up rf2, get in that thing after a year or whatever its been, & this is just gonna seem crap in comparison. it didnt! its just a really fun car. in a really fun sim.



TLDR: id absolutely recommend pC for lower level simracers. and imo people who have more idea with whats going on, or should be going on, are still prob gonna find it worth checking out for what ppl in this thread say they like it for, a change of pace, not by definition 'arcade' but something similar but alot less punishing.
 
i kinda doubt that, probably will be developed for the next year or two.

Well they have already stipulated that there will not be a tier system.
You will need to register on time or miss out.

buddhatree points it out, DLC, so it beggars the question with many staff what do they all work on ?

Their experience in DX10/11 they would have no trouble moving to DX12.
Release /rehash one car and track, add a few new features......... people will still line up. lol ;)

I expect Kunos to bleed AC longer. hehe ;)
 
Funny years ago I suggested people do that in rF2 and AC ( turn off FF ) .......to see just how much you can feel the tyres and chassis.
Not a single person commented. :p

I see all this as besides the point anyways , again, I say no one here said pCars has better fizzix p or FF then rF2.

Not to mention Hex, myself and others already made it patently obvious in no uncertain terms that we did not equate rF2 and pCars in those regards.

You sort of debate yourself. ;)

Well Im probably one of the few who can compare all the latest releases in the last 5 years or more on how they feel with out FFB , I don't have it (until next Thursday) and I guess have a feel through visual and audible queues more than most. Im not the fastest driver around but regard myself as a front 1/3rd of the field in most cars , Ive learnt how to get the best from my car using obviously lap times and tyre wear mostly. All of this has also given me a feel for the general behaviour physics of the releases and based on that RF2 is streets ahead and a number of the Pcars are better than AC stuff (some definitely are not), Im sure there will be "purists " who diss my comments because I don't run FFB (yet ) but what, not having FFB does is give you a level datum to compare each cars balance .
Im kind of dubious of what FFB will do for me , with varying quality of FFB across different games/software ,most likely confuse the hell out of me to start with. just my 2 bobs worth
 
you will probably be a bit disappointed w/ ffb, i know i was at first after all the "GET A WHEEL ITLL CHANGE YOUR LIFE" stuff (it did, but, yeah). id suggest starting with something you know has mediocre ffb (any codemasters racing game, say, or an old simbin title) & working up to something like rf2 as you may be able to appreciate what its sending you more.
 
Well Im probably one of the few who can compare all the latest releases in the last 5 years or more on how they feel with out FFB , I don't have it (until next Thursday) and I guess have a feel through visual and audible queues more than most. Im not the fastest driver around but regard myself as a front 1/3rd of the field in most cars , Ive learnt how to get the best from my car using obviously lap times and tyre wear mostly. All of this has also given me a feel for the general behaviour physics of the releases and based on that RF2 is streets ahead and a number of the Pcars are better than AC stuff (some definitely are not), Im sure there will be "purists " who diss my comments because I don't run FFB (yet ) but what, not having FFB does is give you a level datum to compare each cars balance .
Im kind of dubious of what FFB will do for me , with varying quality of FFB across different games/software ,most likely confuse the hell out of me to start with. just my 2 bobs worth

No debate from me mate :) No FFB in rF2 is like a revelation ( I used broken/ no FF for almost a year)

Which is why I pointed it out in AC rant/flame wars threads we had a year back. :)

Anyhow I say no matter how SMS came to achieve the overall feel, canned, whatever, it is a lot better then any other simcade title about and can be just as immersive and fun as anything else.

I say allow for the lack of feel and feedback by not trying to push 100% , more mistakes the less real it feels.
Smooth consistent laps and enjoy the immersion at your given level.
 
One thing I've got to give PC credit for is all the options for FFB tuning. I personally believe we need those tuning abilities since we're not inside driving around in a real car. I was disappointed to see more and more sims not give you all those options as they were going for a "these are the forces that the steering column gives you, therefore this is the only way to do proper, realistic FFB" type of style.

It's great that PC gives you all sorts of options still, not to mention SimExperience's SimCommander software (have to own their wheel), as well as GSCE, FT and R3E (since their core FFB is based on the pre-RF2 ISI engine).

I'm really thankful for that, actually, as it means a lot to certain aspects of my driving experience. I've had some of the best and unforgettable driving experiences ever in GT Legends thanks-in-large-part to all the FFB tuning available.


Not that PC's driving comes anywhere near a "true" sim like rFactor 2 (or even GSC & FT), but I have to give them credit for allowing all the FFB tuning options, regardless.
 
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why are GSCE/FT mentioned as positive examples of this? great ffb but unless you mess around with realfeel values youre limited to a few presets & a single slider.

im glad pC gives us all the options bc the default is the supposedly (according to their evangelists) the "direct from the steering rack" stuff & it feels like driving on glass. so i could at least pump up road feel. but just by downloading jack spade's FFB tweaker files you get an instant game-changer, without having to touch anything.
 
why are GSCE/FT mentioned as positive examples of this? great ffb but unless you mess around with realfeel values youre limited to a few presets & a single slider.
GSCE and FT have the 5 or 10 Realfeel values as you mentioned which can make a lot of difference, plus there's a bunch more values in the controller file, hence my GT Legends comment. Same with pretty much any game based on a pre-RF2 ISI engine. Where do you think all the R3E FFB sliders are from? They're from the lines you can edit in your controller file. Simbin also did this - to a lesser extent - with the in-game FFB settings of Race 07, GTR Evo, etc.; they're just some of the player/controller files implemented in-game.

I guess, technically speaking, I should be thanking ISI as-well as the creator of Realfeel since they're the creators, but anyways, you get the point.
 
Ok, steering-filtering problem is gone now. Have no extra steering/ input-lag.
 
I guess, technically speaking, I should be thanking ISI as-well as the creator of Realfeel since they're the creators, but anyways, you get the point.
If I recall correctly, Leo Bodnar or Chris Hoyle created RealFeel, not ISI.
 
Realfeel only used rFactor's (thus ISI's) steering arm force from telemetry. It didn't calculate forces based on equations etc etc. I suspect Leo Bodnar's plugin was a bit more complex in that sense, with some low-speed force generation in particular.
 
I'll send private msg so not to derail thread.

R3E has come a very long way too I think. I'm having problems finding time for all these sims atm, but from what I've experienced, R3E is definitely worth having.
Only big problem is Sector3's business model imo. But the tracks are fantastic, so are most of the cars, physics and force feedback are pretty engaging and intense.

Thank you Emery for detailed RaceRoom inbox review and Hexagramme for his p.o.v. Buying more this one title.
 
No I get what you mean. Again it didn't mean it as an attack or an accusation.
I am simply surprised that so many people go out of their way to accuse pCARS of being arcade when it's simply no true.
I think the tire model feels great and very communicative.

The need to set up ffb per car seems a bit daunting, but to me it seems that the same-ish base values works quite well for most cars.
Tire forces at 115-120, ffb at 100, master scale of around 26-30, Fx at 48-50, Fy a bit higher, Fz at about 54-60 and the Mz at anywhere between 100-200, depending on the car.
Smoothing at 0 obviously.

I am starting to migrate from the "Arcade" view. I am now experimenting and tweeking Jack Spades FFB settings and have actually had some good fun hacking round Donington in the Formula Rookie.....yes, its way easier to drive than a real Formula Ford but when set up loose and pushed hard it deserves better than "Arcade" and better than any experience I have managed on Assetto Corsa. I made quite a fun set up with the old Mercedes 300 minimising all the diff settings and tweeking the FFB and now it drifts about in quite a fun manner, not a quick way to lap but enjoyably challenging. Potential recognised at last?
 
Good Game series 11 ep 13 ABC Iview if you're in Oz.

Thanks will look it up and watch the whole review

Link for those interested in a gamers review [video]http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/good-game/LE1439H013S00#playing[/video]
 
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Thanks will look it up and watch the whole review

Link for those interested in a gamers review [video]http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/good-game/LE1439H013S00#playing[/video]

Thanks for that, I blocked out their personal thoughts once they said "we're not simracers" and concentrated on the game, dunno when they went to Bathurst but it looked very different in certain sections from what I saw last year! Also wish they turned off the Racing Line Markers.
 
yeah sorry I was referring to track side objects, seems they've added a lot of what is not there to spruce it up maybe.
 
Agree , I take their opinion with a grain of slat(not even a grain really) but they are preaching to future sim racers on a mainstream medium and their opinion is disturbing really.
 
I thought that episode of good game to be quite refreshing. I thought it interesting that they only mentioned iRacing & rFactor as simulations of note, leaving out any mention of the other pretenders. Pcars may end up being the game I use to coach my kids into sim racing and race craft. The driving aids are important in that regard.
 
Just tried some FFB settings based on JackSpade (or whatever his name is)...Yes, they make the FFB feel more lively and engaging (regardless of wether it's technically more realistic or not), and they allow you to feel grip gain/loss characteristics better, as well as chassis/suspension bumps and overall movements.

Having said that, my thoughts about the vehicle dynamics haven't changed the slightest, FFB doesn't change physics.

If I recall correctly, Leo Bodnar or Chris Hoyle created RealFeel, not ISI.
Yup, I'm well aware ISI didn't create RealFeel :)
 
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Just tried some FFB settings based on JackSpade (or whatever his name is)...Yes, they make the FFB feel more lively and engaging (regardless of wether it's technically more realistic or not), and they allow you to feel grip gain/loss characteristics better, as well as chassis/suspension bumps and overall movements.

Having said that, my thoughts about the vehicle dynamics haven't changed the slightest, FFB doesn't change physics.

Yup, I'm well aware ISI didn't create RealFeel :)

Force feedback changes our perception of the physics and therefore the way we drive. Or am I only talking on my own behalf here?
If the force feedback is set up wrong it will lead me to believe that the car has a certain characteristic that it really doesn't have.
The ffb will cheat me into thinking that the car is understeering when it's really not, as an example.

But anyway. I'm able to squeeze infinitely more "feel" out of pCARS than I've managed with AC during the 2 years I've had it.
Uncovering the physics by tuning the force feedback is really fun and deeply surprising how well SMS have managed to make this sim.
The Mz slider in the car tuning screen is the key for me. Also the "F" slider controlling vertical forces (who said they couldn't feel the bumps in the road??).

pCARS provides infinitely better offline racing than AC too, even though the AI isn't perfect.
They're not afraid of passing, they're not afraid of defending. They can go side by side with you without contact (think Sonoma, all the way through the esses!)

I'm thinking it can't be very fun to be a single minded AC fan these days, since pCARS has basically just swooped in from the right and managed to outperform it in pretty much every aspect.
Physics, force feedback, graphics, AI, career, features, track variety, etc.
 
Force feedback changes our perception of the physics and therefore the way we drive. Or am I only talking on my own behalf here?
If the force feedback is set up wrong it will lead me to believe that the car has a certain characteristic that it really doesn't have.
The ffb will cheat me into thinking that the car is understeering when it's really not, as an example.

Not for me :) , Yes, I can feel the limits of the car better and/or earlier therefore drive more consistently while also getting more tenths out of the car, and also get up to speed on a new car better/faster with better FFB, of course, but that's just from me driving better, it doesn't change how I perceive the car's physics to be, how it's moving, how it's acting/reacting based on inputs, how it slides, how it behaves as you go into a corner, exit, as you add lock, etc. etc. FFB doesn't change my perception of the vehicle dynamics at work.

I can play rF2 with FFB completely off, it doesn't change the absolute slightest thing for me with how the cars/physics behave/act/react. RF2 is still RF2, PC is still PC, etc.

I'm currently using a backup wheel (Logitech red "Momo Force") and not a single sim I play (RF2, GSCE, PC, AC, R3E, etc.) drive or seem to drive any differently than when I had my T500RS. It's identical to me. FFB different? Heck ya! Car/physics difference? Not the slightest to me :)

I've messed around with millions of RF1/GSCE/GTL/GTR1/R07 FFB settings, combined with at-least 5 different wheels (Momo Racing, G25, Momo Force, CSR, T500RS) - each of those wheels combined with countless amounts of FFB setups for each - and never once did any car seem, to me, to act/react/behave differently. It was always the exact identical car, with the exact identical characteristics but just with different FFB characteristics sent to my wheel, hence the car (obviously) always drove 100% identical.


An extreme example, but plugging in some amazing FFB into Need for Speed Shift - and therefore being able to feel things like the car's grip so much better through your wheel - doesn't change arcade physics. Sure, you'll drive better because of better FFB, and you'll feel more of the physics at work, but don't confuse driving better (because of more communicative and alive FFB) and feeling more physics with actual better physics.


Try to separate the two or your judgment of vehicle dynamics will always be based on and/or limited by your FFB experience.
 
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Well we will just have to agree that we disagree on that then. :)

In rF2 the physics are directly connected to the force feedback so I wouldn't have the slightest clue of the car's behavior if I didn't have any forces coming through the wheel. I wouldn't be able to feel how close I am to the limit, how close the tires are to the limit of adhesion etc. Well yeah I would have some idea, but only AFTER going off the track. :D Here I'm not talking about obvious oversteer and understeer, I can tell by sounds and visual clues. No I mean all the subtleties that you have to be aware of if you want to be fast. :)

I am well aware that the force feedback doesn't change the physics one bit, but in my mind the two are still connected and determines how I drive the car. I am inexperienced still, compared to you anyway. But I'm still very fast so that way of thinking can't be completely bonkers I think. :D

If the forces tell me the opposite of what the car is doing I will drive badly. Or I will think to myself 'what an awful car, what on earth is going on here'.
 
Well we will just have to agree that we disagree on that then. :)

In rF2 the physics are directly connected to the force feedback so I wouldn't have the slightest clue of the car's behavior if I didn't have any forces coming through the wheel. I wouldn't be able to feel how close I am to the limit, how close the tires are to the limit of adhesion etc. Well yeah I would have some idea, but only AFTER going off the track. :D Here I'm not talking about obvious oversteer and understeer, I can tell by sounds and visual clues. No I mean all the subtleties that you have to be aware of if you want to be fast. :)

I am well aware that the force feedback doesn't change the physics one bit, but in my mind the two are still connected and determines how I drive the car. I am inexperienced still, compared to you anyway. But I'm still very fast so that way of thinking can't be completely bonkers I think. :D

If the forces tell me the opposite of what the car is doing I will drive badly. Or I will think to myself 'what an awful car, what on earth is going on here'.

Got to agree with you here. Driving is all about feel and feedback. The difference between the good and the great could be sensitivity to find the maximum grip the tyres can deliver in any circumstance. Race tyres work in a much tighter envelope than road tyres so the sensitivity has to be more acute. The confusion for me is that now with PCars I spend all my time mucking about with FFB which stops me from getting round to setting up the car itself. I do think the developers should sort out some decent default settings for the most popular wheels.
 
When you turn the wheel and the car doesn't rotate, isn't that a good indication that it's under steering? Do you really need FFB to tell you the car isn't turning. Back in the day we played GPL without FFB. FFB is a significant input in sim racing so good FFB is very important. But the underlying physics are much more important.
 

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